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Walking with God rather than following men.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Xeno.of.athens, Aug 12, 2022.

  1. Xeno.of.athens

    Xeno.of.athens The proof of love is in the works.

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    I think that
    We, meaning humanity, must stop following leaders because the leaders have no special insight into doing what is right.​
     
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  2. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Wow! I just posted a thread that addressed this very issue!
    The Lord is syncing us up here.
    The Ruler Over The Kings Of The Earth
     
  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know about humanity in general, but the saints
    better open their eyes to see the things that are dubious.
     
  4. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you have truly been anointed.
    1John.2
    1. [27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
     
  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hello @Xeno.of.athens, that seems like a bit of an odd thing for a Christian to say .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 11:1; Hebrews 6:12, 13:7, 17, particularly so since you are Roman Catholic ;)

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning here however? Could you elaborate a bit, perhaps also giving us an example or two (of the leadership of your church having no special insight/being unable to provide any help for you, and other Catholics, in being able to discern between what is, and what is not, the right thing to do)?

    Thanks :)

    God bless you!!

    --David

    Hebrews 13
    7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
    .
     
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Depends on who they are leading.
     
  7. Xeno.of.athens

    Xeno.of.athens The proof of love is in the works.

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    I just have to correct this "particularly so since you are Roman Catholic ;)" :p

    I was thinking mainly about political leaders and current world events when I wrote the original post but in retrospect it also applies to religious matters and church leaders but in a specific way. The specific way is this.
    We, meaning humanity, must stop following leaders' directions on physical conflict because the leaders have no special insight into doing what is morally right.​
     
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  8. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Thank you (@Xeno.of.athens) for explaining all of that to me :)

    I thought that what you were saying in your OP sounded like you were probably speaking about worldly/political leaders (instead of leaders in the church), but since you put in on General Theology board, I thought that I'd better ask you about it.

    God bless you!!

    --David
     
  9. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Such as a false day of worship
    Satan counterfeits everything

    Matthew 15:19
    Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Matthew 15:9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Mark 7:7
    Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Colossians 2:22
    Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

    Titus 1:14
    Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


    GOD HAS WARNED US ABOUT FALSE WORSHIP

    Revelation 14:7
    Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Exodus 20
    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
     
  10. Xeno.of.athens

    Xeno.of.athens The proof of love is in the works.

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    such as teaching that a 'true' day of worship will somehow contribute to one's salvation. But even worse than depending on a day is to do so on the say so of another who is not nor ever was God.
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Or such as creating a new tradition of man within Christianity that tries to revert us back to the letter of the Law when Jesus gave us new traditions/oral teachings. The Sabbath obligation is still observed, but on the Lord's Day, the day of His resurrection. And the other nine, which involve direct moral activities, are still observed and considered obligatory "as is" in God's Church since the beginning while other, later Church's, based on Scripture alone, often deny that obligation altogether.
     
  12. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    There are many ways that we can follow man rather than God. In religious matters there are false prophets/prophetesses. And there are popular trends and fashions everywhere in the world, not always healthy, including in churches. Pride, mainly, keeps us focused on ourselves and in fear of what others think and the selfishness it generates does all kinds of harm in our world. We can be pulled away from God by our own lusts (James 1:14). I've always appreciated the following verse that applies in general:

    "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43
     
  13. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    but yet .... ?

    In the teaching of the Catholic Church, an indulgence (Latin: indulgentia, from indulgeo, 'permit') is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins".[1] The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and all of the saints".[2]

    The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specific good works.[3]
     
  14. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    That would include religious leaders as well.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Not sure how any of that would apply to the sabbath anyway, but, first of all, an indulgence is not associated with salvation, but simply with the consequences of sin in this life. OTOH, Catholicism teaches that a person cannot possibly justify themselves by works of the law; only God can justify us via faith in response to His grace, and yet, once justified, now new creations equipped with His justice/righteousness, we're responsible to walk in it by remaining in Him and doing His will with the help of grace, working out our salvation together with He who works in us. So verses such as Rom 2:7, Rom 2:13, and 8:12-13 make perfect sense in Catholicism:

    "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

    "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

    "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Makes no sense one can pay $$$ to lesson their consequences of sin.

    In relation to the Sabbath ... that was in response to ... by keeping it one can not earn their way to heaven .... and this is true .... just as one can not pay $$$$ to lessen their consequences of sin.

    It is the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer that helps one to overcome sin (sanctification) and helps us to keep the law .... this is the Love of God .... helping us to overcome sin and sin is transgression of the law.

    There is "no good" in us .... the good is in Christ alone and through the work of the Holy Spirit His goodness changes our hearts (turning from sin) over the course of our earthly life.

    It's HIS works ... not ours.
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Indulgences were never initially about $$$ but, often though not exclusively, about almsgiving, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked as one means of realizing remission of certain practical or temporal consequences of sin (but any act of mercy or charity as well as prayer can be effective for these purposes). Some, of less than noble and Christ-like character, gradually managed to find a way to exploit the long-held teaching, compromising and corrupting the original concept in the process, as humans are wont to do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
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  18. Xeno.of.athens

    Xeno.of.athens The proof of love is in the works.

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    Temporal means what?
    Google "define temporal" in your web browser and you ought to see this relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; which is useful to know. ​
    Temporal punishment would be called "consequences" in this world. If one does not complete the temporal punishments due in this world then in purgatory one must learn the lessons that the earthly consequences are intended to teach.

    Punishment need not be conceived of as torture. Attending remedial classes is also a punishment which is a consequence that ought to teach lessons. So the idea of an indulgence in the Catechism is similar to a certificate of completion [of required lessons].

    Such certificates are granted to sinners who have confessed their sins, with true repentance, and have been forgiven by God, absolved by God (through the words of absolution spoken by a priest of God), and then performed the meritorious act mentioned on the certificate (indulgence).
     
  19. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    GOD SPOKE NOT SOME ONE ELSE AS YOU STATED "is to do so on the say so of another who is not nor ever was God"

    Please note the highlighted statements
    7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord not the Jewish Sabbath but the Lords day

    Exodus 20
    King James Version

    20 And God spake all these words, saying,

    8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

    10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
     
  20. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    what happens if the sinner does not complete the meritorious indulgence?
    mĕr″ĭ-tôr′ē-əs
    adjective
    1. Deserving reward or praise; having merit.
    2. Possessing merit; deserving of reward or honor; worthy of recompense; valuable.
    3. deserving of merit or commendation; deserving reward
     
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