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Walking Impeachment To The Senate

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by Bobber, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    – released while Trump is at an economic conference in Switzerland and several soon-to-be Senate jurors were in early primary states campaigning for the Democratic presidential nomination – showed that 51% of those surveyed want the Senate to make Trump the first president in U.S. history to be convicted and forced out of office, compared to 45% who think the Senate should not do so.

    While those numbers would be a standard display of a politically divided country on policy issues, they are remarkable for a matter of such gravity and historic consequence. A majority of Americans did not support President Richard Nixon's removal from office until right before he resigned in August 1973, an act he took to avoid certain impeachment by the House. In the week of President Bill Clinton's Senate trial, polling showed that two-thirds of the American public did not want him removed from office.
    Impeachment trial: Allowing new evidence supported by majority in poll

    If the Senate fails to convict, this would be the first time that they defied American public sentiment.


     
  2. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    That's what John Gotti said about using Sammy Gravano as a witness. Guess how that turned out. When you're dealing with someone like Trump, his close associates are not going to be boy scouts. So you have to vet what they say, by carefully comparing it to what evidence says.

    Which is what's happening with his underlings.
     
  3. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    Most of them wanted to hear from witnesses the democrats in the House wouldn't allow to be called. They want to hear from the whistleblower, Adam Schiff, Hunter Biden, etc. but I doubt we will.
     
  4. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    The law protects the guy who turned Trump in. Hunter Biden probably wouldn't be as good a diversion as you think; a lot of people have tried and failed to show any Ukraine corruption on his part. And every time he's brought up, it reminds people why Trump got himself in this mess.

    There's no way the Senate could compel the House to let Schiff go beyond the information he's already sent to the Senate.

    But I'm sure the American people would be willing to let Hunter Biden testify as well as Parnas, Hyde, and the witnesses from the House inquiry. You know when Reagan was in trouble, he said "I have nothing to hide,and any of my people can testify when you want them." And it got him out of trouble. Trump tried to defy the House and keep information from them, and it gave them one more article of impeachment.

    You can try to hide things, but as Watergate showed, it won't work. McConnell seems to be slowly realizing this, but I suspect he'll still try to cover up as much as he thinks he can get away with doing.
     
  5. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    McConnell flinches and changes his proposed rules, for reasons he's not talking about:
     
  6. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on. You don't think if Trump was a VP and his son got a sweet heart deal from a foreign country over which he was the point man over it wouldn't be an open and shut case automatically being declared guilty?

    Or rather just the thing to say to do anything to get people's minds off what should be considered obvious.
     
  7. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    I watched the clip. So what's the big deal. They still made it 24 hours only but spread out over 3 days instead of two. No reason why one side can't give into anything.
     
  8. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    It matters a lot. Because under McConnell's plan, the House prosecutors would have been summarizing about midnight each day, with very few people watching. Clever, um?

    But it seems that it was too obvious a cover-up.

    So he folded and lost that advantage.
     
  9. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Well, that sounds like a testable belief...

    While the lack of self-awareness should be apparent, it should also be noted that while his father has been president, Trump Jr. has opened himself and his dad up to a whole host of conflict of interest issues. For example, a trip to India Trump Jr. took to sell his family’s condominium projects cost American taxpayers roughly $100,000.
    Donald Trump Jr: I Wish I Was Like Hunter Biden So I Could ‘Make Millions Off of My Father’s Presidency’

    Ivanka Trump Wins China Trademarks, Then Her Father Vows to Save ZTE
    Ivanka Trump Wins China Trademarks, Then Her Father Vows to Save ZTE


    A mammoth mortgage of about $1.4 billion was due in February of this year, leading to speculation throughout Jared’s time in the West Wing about how, exactly, the Kushner family would come up with the cash. Multiple foreign governments seized on this uncertainty, privately discussing ways to take advantage of his business entanglements and financial difficulties when dealing with the United States, the Washington Post reported.
    Most Popular

    In April 2017, a real estate firm tied to the Kushner family made a direct appeal to the government of Qatar to invest in the troubled building, The Intercept reported. A month later, when a coalition of Persian Gulf states led by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates organized a blockade of Qatar, Kushner was among its most vocal U.S. supporters. According to NBC News, some Qatari officials believed the White House’s position was retaliation for their government’s decision not to make a deal with Kushner’s family. In the months that followed, Kushner developed a close working relationship with Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman—close enough that bin Salman allegedly told confidants that the president’s son-in-law was “in his pocket.”

    How Donald Trump's Kids Have Profited Off Their Dad's Presidency
     
  10. barefeetonholyground

    barefeetonholyground CF member for 15 years!

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    You mean like they did after Antonin Scalia's "heart attack?" If this happens I'm buying every CFer willing to meet me in my hometown two rounds of top shelf scotch.
     
  11. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    It seems they called everyone with anything to say about the charges. Didn't allow any bunny trails, though.

    There's that problem of the law protecting his or her identity.

    They probably wish they'd never mentioned it, after Schiff appeared and presented his analysis:


    They'd have to make a compelling argument that Biden knew something about Trump withholding aid from Ukraine to coerce Zelensky into helping Trump politically. Doesn't sound very likely, does it? I suspect that McConnell is beginning to realize how that would play with most Americans.
     
  12. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    The whistleblower had nothing to say? Funny how they finally thought it was time to stay silent.

    And not allowing the accused to face their accuser. That's the problem that's solved under the Sixth Amendment.

    Which is no different than anything we've already heard him say during the hearings.

    I guess we'll never know if he's not willing to testify.
     
  13. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    He or she merely blew the whistle. Fortunately, that wasn't the only witness involved. As you know, Vindman confirmed the report, and we have emails and other documents that verify Trump illegally withheld military aid in an attempt to get Zelensky to help him against a political rival.

    Newly released emails regarding Ukraine defense aid held by the White House show that a request to withhold funds came less than two hours after President Donald Trump's July phone call with the Ukrainian president...
    Government officials raised concern over the much-discussed phone conversation as it appeared that Trump improperly asked Zelenskiy to investigate Hunter Biden, the son of former Vice President Joe Biden — one of Trump's chief political rivals in the 2020 election.
    ...


    It appeared that those involved felt the hold could be problematic, considering Duffey wrote to officials in his office and at the Pentagon to keep it all close their chest.
    Newly released emails provide details in White House pause of Ukraine aid

    If that bothers you, write McConnell and tell him to allow Vindnman, Sondland, Yovanovitch, and Parnas to testify. I don't think he's leaning that way.

    (noting that Schiff effectively refuted all the proposed defenses of Trump's crime)

    Yep. Even republicans were impressed with how well he handled it:

    Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham congratulated Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff, the lead House impeachment manager, on a job well done after day two of the Senate impeachment trial of President Donald Trump wrapped.
    Graham congratulated Schiff on a 'well done day' in impeachment trial - CNNPolitics


    They'd have to make a compelling argument that Biden knew something about Trump withholding aid from Ukraine to coerce Zelensky into helping Trump politically. Doesn't sound very likely, does it? I suspect that McConnell is beginning to realize how that would play with most Americans.

    They merely have to issue a subpoena. But as I said, I think McConnell is starting to realize how that would play with most Americans.
     
  14. Sistrin

    Sistrin We are such stuff as dreams are made on... Supporter

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    Because they think they are important, and above everyone else. Sad that so many agree.
     
  15. Sistrin

    Sistrin We are such stuff as dreams are made on... Supporter

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    Vindman was (and is) a pompous, arrogant moron. Anyone who ever actually served in the US Military knows exactly what kind of officer and what kind of man Vindman is. He is the kind of officer who gets people killed, and I wouldn't give two cents for his self-serving service.

    And please, spare me the recitation of the National Anthem in response to the mention of his name.
     
  16. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    It would be a remarkable thing for a moron to receive a master of arts degree from Harvard University in Russian, Eastern European and Central Asian studies. Especially, if he happened to be pompous and arrogant.

    It appears you are right:

    During his Army career, Vindman earned the Ranger Tab, Combat Infantryman Badge, Expert Infantryman Badge, and Parachutist Badge, as well as four Army Commendation Medals and two Defense Meritorious Service Medals. And at least one Purple Heart for injuries in combat while serving in Iraq.
    ...
    He was promoted to the rank of major in 2008,[9] and to lieutenant colonel in September 2015.
    Alexander Vindman - Wikipedia

    You don't get promotions that quickly without exceptional OERs. So yes, it does appear that his fellow soldiers (including his commanders) know exactly the kind of man Vindman is.

    It seems those who actually have been through combat and know what leadership is, disagree with you. They found Vindman to be an exceptional officer.

    As Gen. Mattis remarked, there are some of us who win their spurs on the battlefield, and others who purchase them from a doctor. Vindman was the former. But you're entitled to your preferences.

    The National Anthem is sung or played, not recited. When it is performed, an officer stands at attention and salutes. Civilians place their right hands over their hearts. Our president fortunately has a wife to remind him...
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  17. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Tradition. The articles are carried over to the Senate by a delegation from the House. Republicans did it during Clinton's impeachment.

    Actually, the impeachment is based on the idea that no one in government can be above everyone else. The Founders deliberately made the state deep enough that no one has complete power.

    It was very wise of them to do so.
     
  18. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Attempt to smear Vindman backfires on Jim Jordan:
    Jordan asked Vindman why his colleagues would question his judgement — and the lieutenant colonel proceeded to read directly from Hill’s final performance review of his work.

    “‘Alex is a top one percent military officer and the best army officer I have worked with in my 15 years of government service,'” he said, quoting from Hill’s evaluation. “‘He is brilliant, unflappable, and exercises excellent judgment.’… I think you get the idea.”
    Vindman blows up Jim Jordan’s smear of his service by reading glowing performance review


    Jordan isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. When he was a wrestling coach at Ohio state, the team physician sexually molested about 53 wrestlers, and Jordan swears that he had no idea anything was going on.
     
  19. Sistrin

    Sistrin We are such stuff as dreams are made on... Supporter

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    Why would being both pompous and arrogant prevent one from receiving an education? Your comment is invalid as it makes no logical sense.

    And at this point do you really not understand why the guy would have pursued Russian and Eastern European studies? Probably not, as like the vast majority of the hate-Trump crowd you haven't been paying any real attention to the process and events currently underway.

    I got all of that too. Do you know what any of it actually means? Nothing, except to me, my late wife and the children we had together (and don't you even dare), and those I went through it with. It certainly won't mean anything to you, because the only reason you are willing to act as if you give a crap about Vindman's service is he was willing to mouth off in the attempt to destroy President Trump, the American election system, and the country as we have known it.

    Anytime a leftist starts blabbering about how much they honor military service and how they support the troops I have to laugh, because I know from first hand direct experience what a load of crap it is. If Vindman had testified in any manner in support of President Trump the very same people wailing about how Vindman is beyond reproach would be wailing about what a reprobate he was.

    And the difference between me and Vindman is when it was suggested I put in for the Purple Heart I turned it down, because although the initial cause of why I was there was a result of combat the injury I suffered was due to the fact I hit the ground wrong. I wasn't going to attempt to parlay that into a reward I didn't feel I actually deserved, as my ambitions did not include the ability to, after I left the Army, walk around everywhere talking about how great I was. Vindman is just such a guy, a self-serving social climber in the vein of John Kerry who, by the way, served in Vietnam and threw someone else's medals over the White House fence.

    During my service I saw many Officers like Vindman. They had to carry tissue with them everywhere in order to clean the constant stain from their noses.

    A statement which proves you have no first hand knowledge of how the process actually works.

    No, you disagree with me because your indoctrination allows for no other alternative.

    So now you are part of the clique, we are expected to believe? And this from a guy who asked us to believe when he was taking pictures at an airport and a police officer asked him what he was doing his first response was to tell her to wait. And that she subsequently walked away feeling foolish just because her mere self had been in the presence of the Great and All Powerful Wizard of Barb.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  20. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Barbarian observes:
    It would be a remarkable thing for a moron to receive a master of arts degree from Harvard University in Russian, Eastern European and Central Asian studies. Especially, if he happened to be pompous and arrogant.

    You need to read it more carefully. I pointed out that it would be a remarkable thing for a moron to get a master's degree from Harvard, especially if he was pompous and arrogant. Shouldn't be that hard to understand. It was coined to describe people with IQs of about 50 to 70. And of course, pompous and arrogant people tend to annoy others, which makes it even harder.

    Your comment is probably just a matter of careless reading, as it makes no logical sense.

    Since his father was a native Ukrainian,and he already knew Russian and Ukrainian languages, I thought that would be obvious. What do you think is mysterious about that? Don't you think it would be obvious?

    Probably not, as like the vast majority of the worship-Trump crowd you haven't been paying any real attention to the process and events currently underway.

    It appears you are right:

    During his Army career, Vindman earned the Ranger Tab, Combat Infantryman Badge, Expert Infantryman Badge, and Parachutist Badge, as well as four Army Commendation Medals and two Defense Meritorious Service Medals. And at least one Purple Heart for injuries in combat while serving in Iraq.
    ...
    He was promoted to the rank of major in 2008,[9] and to lieutenant colonel in September 2015.
    Alexander Vindman - Wikipedia

    You don't get promotions that quickly without exceptional OERs. So yes, it does appear that his fellow soldiers (including his commanders) know exactly the kind of man Vindman is.

    The vehicle in which Vindman was traveling got blown up by an IED, injuring him. Which is different than falling on the ground. Perhaps you read the GQ story, in which they reported that he was injured by an IUD, which would be far more likely in Trump's case than Vindman's. :|

    You have no idea... claiming military service is a common dodge on these message boards, but I assure you, I know what the process is. Even during the Vietnam unpleasantness, it was unusual to make LC that quickly. Unless you were a physician, in which case it was the reward you got for re-upping. Even pilots didn't get that kind of turn around.

    You probably didn't know, but there are some statutory requirements for promotion to each rank up to 0-6, and a few additional ones for 0-7 and up. I can look them up for you, if you like.

    As Gen. Mattis remarked, there are some of us who win their spurs on the battlefield, and others who purchase them from a doctor. Vindman was the former. But you're entitled to your preferences.

    Generally, veterans don't call it a "clique." Mattis might be a Marine, but he's a man of considerable credibility with those of us who served. He remains very popular with his fellow Marines.

    [/diversion attempt]
    [/diversion attempt]

    Yep. She was young, and a bit unsure of herself. But I wasn't going to give her a hard time...

    From that forum:
    Waiting for my wife's plane at Dallas Love Field, I stepped outside the terminal and using my cell phone tried to get a pano of the area. About the third shot, a police officer approached. I said, "I'm not being rude,but I have to finish this series of shots." (I was taking multiple images for a pano)

    She waited patiently.

    "So what can I do for you?"

    She was concerned about terrorism. She was so earnest, I was unwilling to laugh, and I told her that I had been taking pictures at airports, including Love Field, for years, and no one ever had asked me about it.

    "Well, with things the way they are..."

    "Would you feel better if I showed you my ID?"

    She would. So I did. She didn't write it down, perhaps beginning to realize that an old guy with a cell phone taking pictures of a building that surely has been photographed countless times, wasn't very likely to be a terrorist.

    And then she walked away. Other than a rather slow security guard for the St. Louis metro line, it's never happened before.

    [​IMG]

    I suspect that she did. She was surely TCOLE certified, and if so, would have recently taken update training on photography in public places. I suspect that it clicked with her during our conversation, about the time I offered to show her my ID. (which in Texas, one is not obligated to do, unless lawfully arrested for a crime)

    Oh, and here's another shot, which shows more of the actual airport operations:
    [​IMG]
    This one, a DPD officer was not 10 yards away from me, and had no issues whatever. But he was older and clearly knew the law WRT such photography.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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