• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Walk through if I have it wrong, Ezekiel 38-39

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,203
    Christian
    Married
    I would argue chronology should not be as important. There are a ton of OT prophecies that are not fulfilled in the order they were written. For example Zechariah 13:

    Zechariah 13:1 On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity

    Zechariah 13:7 Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones.

    Its pretty obvious that verse 1 was not fulfilled before verse 7. The only reason we know this is because of the NT reference.

    Matthew 26:30-31 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered

    So the argument of Chronology is not as good as finding fulfillment in the NT testament scriptures. fulfillment in the NT scriptures should always be our tent pole.


    Use scripture to interpret scripture. The gathering and restoring of fortunes has to do with the return from Babylonian exile.

    Jeremiah 29:10-14 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfareb and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

    Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name

    Psalm 85 is generally recognized as being written upon return from exile.

    Psalm 85:1 Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

    Israel would have to be restored from exile for the promises of the messiah's coming in the flesh to be fulfilled

    God is not hiding his face from his people. He poured out his spirit on them at Pentecost.

    ignoring the tent pole leaves me to believe that your interpretation is incorrect. we know for a fact the spirit was poured out at Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended.

    You believe the spirit will be poured out again? Why would it need to be poured out again, if its already here.


    John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,f to be with you forever

    John 16:7-11 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,203
    Christian
    Married
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Douggg, Here's an interesting perspective I just found via Google. This is more in line with my present thinking on these things. It's a real short article, can be read in a matter of a minute or two, yet this article makes some valid points worth taking into consideration. What I find interesting in that article, this author uses Isaiah 2:4 to make his point the same way I did in a past post in this thread. That at least tells me I'm not alone in my thinking on some of these things.

    Ezekiel 39 Burning weapons for 7 years when
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I don't see my explanation as having a problem. You just need to read the rest of Pslams 2. Be sure to go to the bottom.


    It is talking about the kings of the earth gathering their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, to prevent Him from returning to reign over this earth from Jerusalem.

    In Psalms 2...

    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.


    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    ___________________________________________________

    Now this is where them in Acts were applying the principle they used by referring to Psalms 2 in response to the religious leaders saying to stop preaching about Jesus.

    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.





     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Are we on the same page here? I'm referring to the burning of the weapons for 7 years. Maybe I misunderstood something in your post that I was addressing at the time, thus having us not on the same page. I fully agree with you about when confirming the covenant takes place. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused via my part then.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,203
    Christian
    Married
    So future non-believing kings, rulers, and nations are going to gather to conspire and war against an immortal Jesus they cannot see, as he is in heaven, in an attempt to prevent him from returning from heaven?

    OR

    king herod, Pontius Pilate, the gentiles, people of Israel gathered and conspired against Jesus, in the flesh, to crucify him. This happened as confirmed by Acts 4.

    Yea douggg......I'll stick with Acts 4.

    what does it even mean to "apply the principle"?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Thanks, David, for asking that question.

    What I am trying to do in my last couple of posts is to say why the 7 years following Gog/Magog have to be the same 7 years that precede Jesus return to this earth.

    The burning of the weapons for 7 years, the explanation of how that plays out, considering during part of that time the Jews are being persecuted by the beast - is a separate issue, basically.

    I will try again...with more detail.

    Israel living in peace right before Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38:8-12

    Gog/Magog takes place.

    Gog's army destroyed, Ezekiel 39:4

    Prince who shall come, from the EU, enters the middle east

    Burial of the dead, the 7 months that follow Gog's army destruction.

    Israel gets messiah fever, and Prince who shall come anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist

    The confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years* by the Antichrist.
    (* as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, a big speech)

    The burning of the weapons as the 7 years begin, melting them down, swords into plowshares as the Jews believe they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety

    The Antichrist betrays them, and subsequently becomes the beast

    The great tribulation begins in the middle part of 7 years

    At the end of the great tribulation and 7 years, Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20.

    Jesus returned to earth Ezekiel 39:21-29. That it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 is fixed in concrete.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That the religious leaders (judges) and kings should...

    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Near the end of the 7 years, on day 2475, the world will see Jesus before the throne of God in heaven. It is in Revelation 6:12-17.

    And also in Matthew 24:

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    ____________________________________________________________

    Revelation 6:
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    You are somewhat making my point for me. I'm not suggesting that something has to be in chronological order from start to finish in a chapter, in order for it be in chronological order. I'm using the same reasoning you are using here with your example of verse 1 was not fulfilled before verse 7. How could you have determined that void of any chronology? If chronology didn't play a part in it, then neither event could precede or follow the other.





    What this fails to take into consideration though, there was also an exile around 70 AD. Why can't it be a returning from that exile that Ezekiel 38-39 has in mind? It's not like the Jews are not in their own land once again. And the Jews currently residing there, they appear to fit the part of Israel God would be hiding His face from presently.

    Plus, how does one reasonably explain the following if the defeat of Gog and his multitude have already been fulfilled ages ago?

    Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
    17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
    18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.


    Look at verse 22. Something similar happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. When God rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah that time, do you take that account literally, that this actually took place in history? In the event you do, why wouldn't verse 22 be a literal event as well? And if it is, how could verse 22 have already been fulfilled in the past, yet not one single person past or present can even remotely prove it has?


    This doesn't take into account Romans 11 where we are told that there is a part of Israel that is still blinded. It would be this part He would still be hidng His face from, and not the part of Israel who are not blinded.


    You make good points here. I get where you are coming from, but since the text indicates in Ezekiel 39 that the judgment of Gog and his multitude precedes the fulfilling of Ezekiel 39:29, and that no one to date has provided convincing evidence that God has already executed judgment on Gog ages ago, I'm still left concluding what I'm presently concluding. So maybe He does pour out His Spirit more than once then?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,412
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Here is my take on what will happen during the last 12 +/- years before Jesus Returns for His Millennium reign:
    1/ The Day of the Lord's fiery wrath will occur; at the moment Iran and its proxies commence an attack on Israel, with nuke missiles and all their combined forces. They will be destroyed by a massive explosion of the suns surface, a direct hit at mid-day; Zephaniah 2:4-5, which will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18 All the world will be affected to some degree.
    2/ The worlds survivors will form a One World Govt, of ten regions. But the faithful Christians will be motivated to travel to and settle into all of the holy Land, where the Lord will bless and protect them. Isaiah 35:1-10
    3/ The new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be rich and prosperous and God will motivate the peoples in the far North to attack them. God will show His power by destroying Gog and his army. Ezekiel 38:23
    4/ The leader of the OWG will be concerned about this disaster with Gog, so he comes to Beulah and negotiates a 7 year treaty of peace with them. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 He breaks it at the mid point and conquers Beulah. 2 Thess 2:4 3 1/2 years later Jesus Returns.

    There are many more details and ample scripture to prove this scenario.

    Soon, 1/ will happen, the great world changer to a similar extent as Noah's Flood, but with more survivors, although as Isaiah 13:9-13 says;....humans will be a rare as fine gold....
    A few years later Gog will be destroyed, Joel 2:20, and the Christian citizens of Beulah will bury the dead and commence using the fuel they abandoned.
    This peace treaty with the OWG could be within a year or so of the G/M attack, so the two 7 year periods will overlap and the burying and use of fuel may cease just a year or two before Jesus Returns.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,412
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    I have done that twice now; #15 and #211.
    It is plainly impossible for the people in the holy Land when G/M attack, to be the people who are there now. Jeremiah 12:14 and many other prophesies tell us how Judah will be judged and only a Messianic remnant will survive.
    This truth is, of course, untenable to the 'rapture to heaven' believers, so their eyes are blinded and their ears are stopped. Ephesians 4:18, 2 Thessalonians 2:11
    Only when the Day of the Lord's wrath is over, will most finally understand. Isaiah 29:18, Jeremiah 6:10, Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 32:2-4
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I am sorry but I could not co-relate your narrative in post #211 with the sequence of events in Ezekiel 38-39.

    The impression I get is that you have developed a scenario which you have lifted segments of Ezekiel 38 and 39 and inserted those segments into your scenario.

    In other words, you are fitting parts of Ezekiel 38 - 39 into your scenario - rather than fitting your scenario to Ezekiel 38-39

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    I went through your scenario in your post #211, trying to sort it out. But I couldn't co-relate what you wrote is the sequence of events in Ezekiel 38-39. I could see that you drew upon elements of Ezekiel 38-39. But your narrative didn't appear to be in the order of Ezekiel 38-39.

    So since you had written ....
    A few years later Gog will be destroyed.....

    I responded by saying...Gog's army is destroyed in Ezekiel 39:4.

    ...so I am asking, could you outline the part of your view of what takes place before Ezekiel 39:4?

    I don't see how (from what is written in Ezekiel 38) you are isolating Iran (Persia) from the rest of Gog/Magog, as a separate invasion of Israel, with Gog coming later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    I think Amils typically think it is meaning Christ but not that they think Christ is a literal angel though.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    My view:

    Armageddon involves all nations. But they will not be under alliance as Gog/Magog. Once Ezekiel 39:4 takes place, the Gog/Magog attack is finished.

    In Daniel 11:40-45, near the end of the 7 years, leading up to Armageddon, all nations are draw into the middle east from the 4 cardinal points of the compass. The North, the South, the East, the West.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  18. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,412
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    You need to do what I did; renounce all unbiblical theories and teachings and repent of them.
    Become as a simple seeker of truth, THEN, the Lord will grant understanding. Matthew 11:25

    Otherwise, you will be as most people are today, clueless and taken by surprise when things do start happening.
    Persia is mentioned in Ezekiel 38:5, so some from that area will march with G/M.
    But it is sure that the forthcoming attack on Israel, as per Psalms 83, they will participate, perhaps not with ground troops; they will use their proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.
    Iran will use the nuke missiles, as prophesied in Zechariah 5:1-11 with the result as Psalms 7:12-16, Ezekiel 32:24-25, Jeremiah 49:35-37
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +615
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    If I'm understanding your position somewhat correctly, the position you are taking implies that Ezekiel 39:17-20 is a new context that has nothing to do with what has preceded these verses. And in order to understand the context one must go outside of Ezekiel 38-39 altogether.


    Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

    This follows after that of verse 20. If the executed judgment meant here is not referring to the defeat of Gog, what other judgment in Ezekiel 38-39 could it possibly be referring to then? But if you agree it is referring to that, why wouldn't you also agree Ezekiel 39:17-20 is referring to that as well? Why would this chapter of Ezekiel be all over the place here, where one moment he is describing what happens to Gog, and the next minute he is describing events with that of feasting birds having to do with an entirely different battle altogether, yet nowhere in that same chapter ever bothering to tell us what other battle he is referring to, then returning to talking about the defeat of Gog again, in verse 21?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,510
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    As near as I can tell, you are narrating an attack on Israel before Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39?

    That is going to involve nuclear weapons used against Israel? Destroying the population, I assume. And result in God's judgment by way of an explosion on the sun's surface, wiping out most of the middle east?

    Then in the aftermath, a new global world order government. All before getting to Ezekiel 38?

    And Christians from around the globe, moving into the vacancy of the land of Israel, renamed as Beluah, before being attacked by Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38-39.
    ______________________________________________________________________________
    Keras, if that were correct Christians moving into a nuclear depopulated land of Israel, then Jesus when He has returned to earth, and is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 would not be speaking about Christians in this way.

    23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

    Indication of them in Israel as being Christians when Gog/Magog attacks is not found anywhere in Ezekiel 38 or 39 that I can see.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
Loading...