Voting in the USA?

[Freodin]

Recently, I heard someone talk about (something related to) voting in the USA, mentioning "voting records" or that they couldn't know how someone voted because these "records" were "sealed". I also have heard a number of times about voting registration, and about people "registering as democrats/republicans".

Let me tell first tell you something about voting in Germany.

Every german citizen has the right to vote (there are some very very limited exceptions). There is no need for a special registration, because every german citizen is legally required to register at his place of residence. Every german citizen is also required to own a standardized means of identification, the "Personalausweis" (personal identity card).

At elections, each relevant voting district sends out invitations for every registered citizen, detailing time and place for the voting. You are required to bring your identification, are checked against a list (basically the same list used for the invites), given your voting documents... and that's it. (Yes, there are procedures for voting by mail also.)

Voting is "frei, gleich und geheim" (free, equal and secret):
Meaning,
... there is no coercion on how or even whether to vote.
... everyone gets a vote
... there is no way to connect a vote to a voter.

The last part, in connection with the talk mentioned at the beginning, had me wonder. In Germany, it would be unthinkable (and based on the procedure, actually impossible) to know how someone voted.

Are there indeed "voting records" in the USA, where you could (theoretically, if you were allowed) check how some specific person voted in a specific election?
And how does this "registration" thing work?

 

[Strathos]

Registering for a political party just lets you vote in the primaries, which determine the candidate from that party. They are technically unrelated to the actual federal election.

 

[Freodin]

Registering for a political party just lets you vote in the primaries, which determine the candidate from that party. They are technically unrelated to the actual federal election.

And anyone can do that? For every party? How is that controlled?

 

[Redac]

Registration to vote is to ensure that the person is eligible to actually vote in whatever election you're talking about. It's also important for geographically specific elections. During this process you can select a party if you want. Party registration is generally for the purpose of voting in primary elections. It's in no way a necessity otherwise.

As for voting records, I know these things probably exist for how congressional representatives vote on certain legislation, and there are lists of who is registered to vote and whether that person voted in a given election, but I'm not aware of any records being kept of how people have actually voted in individual elections.

 

[Redac]

And anyone can do that? For every party? How is that controlled?

You can choose one party if you want during voter registration. You check a box, that's it.

 

[Liza B.]

And anyone can do that? For every party? How is that controlled?

Some states have open primaries, some have closed primaries. In states with closed primaries, it's important to register as either Democrat, Republican or whatever so you can vote in the primary, if you choose to do so. In states with open primaries, it's not necessary to register in a party, because anyone can vote in the primaries.

I don't believe there's any way to see who votes for whom. I guess if someone is registered as a Republican you can make a pretty good guess, but they are not obligated to vote that way just because they are registered for that party.

As an aside: I as an American find it pretty disturbing that every single German citizen is required to own a "standard method of identification". Americans are stoutly independent generally and balk at such things.

 

[Cearbhall]

Are there indeed "voting records" in the USA, where you could (theoretically, if you were allowed) check how some specific person voted in a specific election?

Absolutely not. This is not public information. You can only see whether or not a person voted in a given election. A person's vote is never recorded in connection to their name. If they vote on paper, it gets shredded after a certain amount of time (or perhaps right after it's counted, I'm not sure), and if they vote digitally, the computer separates the information.

However, party registration is public record. You can reasonably guess how someone voted in major elections. Furthermore, there are some states where you must be a registered member of a party in order to vote in that party's primaries, in order to prevent members of other parties from trying to sabotage that party's nomination process. If you can see a person's party affiliation and that they voted in a recent primary, you know how they voted.

 

[Nithavela]

As an aside: I as an American find it pretty disturbing that every single German citizen is required to own a "standard method of identification". Americans are stoutly independent generally and balk at such things.

Most germans wouldn't see what there is to balk about that. We're no more or less independent because of some piece of plastic with our name on it, especially in a time where everyone carries severeal other pieces of plastic to allow big corporations to collect your data for some measly rebates.

 

[Liza B.]

Most germans wouldn't see what there is to balk about that. We're no more or less independent because of some piece of plastic with our name on it, especially in a time where everyone carries severeal other pieces of plastic to allow big corporations to collect your data for some measly rebates.

Sadly, I'm sure many Americans would agree with you. Also with being unarmed and having to be identified by the state, but that's a whole 'nother topic and I don't wish to derail the thread.

 

[Nithavela]

Sadly, I'm sure many Americans would agree with you. Also with being unarmed and having to be identified by the state, but that's a whole 'nother topic and I don't wish to derail the thread.

I actually have the license to buy and own guns.

 

[Freodin]

Most germans wouldn't see what there is to balk about that. We're no more or less independent because of some piece of plastic with our name on it, especially in a time where everyone carries severeal other pieces of plastic to allow big corporations to collect your data for some measly rebates.

Well, there is the point about "big brother watching you". Our registration system has the government know (mostly and in theory) where each of its citizen lives. Considering that advantages and disadvantages, and the practical means to do the same thing via other forms of documentation, I'd say I prefer our (german) system. But for Americans it seems to be an emotional reaction mostly.

 

[Liza B.]

Well, there is the point about "big brother watching you". Our registration system has the government know (mostly and in theory) where each of its citizen lives. Considering that advantages and disadvantages, and the practical means to do the same thing via other forms of documentation, I'd say I prefer our (german) system. But for Americans it seems to be an emotional reaction mostly.

No personal disrespect meant, but I learned a lot about the reach of the German government when I learned that homeschooling is illegal in Germany. To an American, that smacks of The State dictating to you what you must do with your very own children.

Please note that I say this as a public school teacher.

 

[Freodin]

Sadly, I'm sure many Americans would agree with you. Also with being unarmed and having to be identified by the state, but that's a whole 'nother topic and I don't wish to derail the thread.

"Having to be identified" is a complex question.

You have to own an identity card, and you have to register at your place of residence. You are not required to carry this identity card with you. It's beneficial in case you get stopped and questioned by the police. They have the right to ask for your identity, and if you don't have the means on you, they can take you to the station to find out.

But I think this is the same in the USA, right?

And you can be identified by so many other means. If you are driving a car, you are required to own and carry with you your drivers license. It contains about the same data as the indentity card.

 

[Cearbhall]

As an aside: I as an American find it pretty disturbing that every single German citizen is required to own a "standard method of identification". Americans are stoutly independent generally and balk at such things.

What percent of American adults don't have an ID? I know that this exists, because that's the trouble with voter ID laws, but I don't know anyone who goes without identification or who balks at the idea of needing it. They'd have to be financially dependent or working illegally, for starters...

 

[Freodin]

Absolutely not. This is not public information. You can only see whether or not a person voted in a given election. A person's vote is never recorded in connection to their name. If they vote on paper, it gets shredded after a certain amount of time (or perhaps right after it's counted, I'm not sure), and if they vote digitally, the computer separates the information.

Ah, ok. Well, it makes sense. Though knowing the different priorities that different societies set, I wouldn't have known any way.

However, party registration is public record. You can reasonably guess how someone voted in major elections. Furthermore, there are some states where you must be a registered member of a party in order to vote in that party's primaries, in order to prevent members of other parties from trying to sabotage that party's nomination process. If you can see a person's party affiliation and that they voted in a recent primary, you know how they voted.

So, these "primary elections" are organized by the state then?
Another difference to Germany. Political parties are - even though they have an official role in the state - private organizations. Setting up canditates for official elections thus is a private business of the parties. To vote in such an election, you have to be a member of a party.

 

[Liza B.]

"Having to be identified" is a complex question.

You have to own an identity card, and you have to register at your place of residence. You are not required to carry this identity card with you. It's beneficial in case you get stopped and questioned by the police. They have the right to ask for your identity, and if you don't have the means on you, they can take you to the station to find out.

But I think this is the same in the USA, right?

And you can be identified by so many other means. If you are driving a car, you are required to own and carry with you your drivers license. It contains about the same data as the indentity card.

Yes, but you do not HAVE to own a car, you see. It's a privilege. If you want the privilege of driving, you must have a license.

In Germany, if you are merely alive, you must "register" with the government. In the US, you may say the same through the Social Security System, but it is not actual a federal crime to fail to register for SS.

In my opinion we have way too much government in modern America and have come to close to systems to which we are accountable. We were never, ever meant to be accountable to Big Daddy Government. On the contrary, they are to be accountable to US.

 

[Freodin]

No personal disrespect meant, but I learned a lot about the reach of the German government when I learned that homeschooling is illegal in Germany. To an American, that smacks of The State dictating to you what you must do with your very own children.

Please note that I say this as a public school teacher.

No disrespect back, but that's just a different view on different aspects of civil life. Children are citizen just as anyone else (with limitations on some rights), so they have a guaranteed right to (about) the same education as every other child. That's why the state guarantees the educational system.
And actually, "homeschooling" isn't illegal in Germany. Keeping your child from school is.

 

[Cearbhall]

No personal disrespect meant, but I learned a lot about the reach of the German government when I learned that homeschooling is illegal in Germany. To an American, that smacks of The State dictating to you what you must do with your very own children.

I'll agree with you there. I find it baffling that such a thing could be prosecuted.

 

[Freodin]

Yes, but you do not HAVE to own a car, you see. It's a privilege. If you want the privilege of driving, you must have a license.

In Germany, if you are merely alive, you must "register" with the government. In the US, you may say the same through the Social Security System, but it is not actual a federal crime to fail to register for SS.

In my opinion we have way too much government in modern America and have come to close to systems to which we are accountable. We were never, ever meant to be accountable to Big Daddy Government. On the contrary, they are to be accountable to US.

Is there a way to show that you are a citizent of the United States? If there is, then you must be registered somewhere. Federally, locally. Doesn't matter. All it comes down is a question of convenience.

Or inconvenience. I have heard of several examples of US citizen who couldn't provide the means to prove their citizenship, and thus were prevented to vote. That would be impossible in Germany.

Call it governmental overreach, but it also helps to ensure the rights of every citizen.

 

[Albion]

On the ID issue, the point is that showing an ID with a picture (that normally is the issue) would tend to limit the number of people who sign in at the polls as someone that they are not. If you present an ID that only has a name, little is accomplished so long as there is such a person who is registered to vote there. How fraudulent voting by non-citizens in Germany is controlled, I really didnt follow from the preceding posts.

I have heard of several examples of US citizen who couldn't provide the means to prove their citizenship, and thus were prevented to vote. That would be impossible in Germany.

No, this would not happen.