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VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

keras

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Apostle Paul wrote 1 Th 4:16-17, rapture verses that perfectly fit Acts 1::11
Sure; those verses both refer to what will happen when Jesus Returns. NOT before and NOTHING to do with a rapture to heaven.
That idea is a lie from the father of lies.
“Delivers us" — in 1 Th 1:10 — written by the apostle inspired by God to write about the rapture, means we are “snatched away,” as in “take you” in John 14:3, and as “gathered up” in 2 Th 2:1 (CEV).
You have to carefully select the definition of 'deliver', from the other meanings of that word.
Thinking it means a rapture removal is wrong, because such a thing is never mentioned in the context, or anywhere in the Bible.

You avoided the Lords Prayer, i quoted.
Are we praying to be raptured when we say: deliver us from evil......
John 17:15 answers this very well - I do not pray for You to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

The idea of a rapture to heaven of anyone. is false and cannot happen.
 
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swainkas

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What Jesus said was specific and irrefutable: No one goes to heaven.....
This truth is confirmed by many other scriptures; John 7:34, John 8:21-213, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10, +
What about the thief on the cross? Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day.
 
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keras

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What about the thief on the cross? Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day.
Jesus didn't go to heaven that day. 1 Peter 3:19
He only Ascended to heaven after 40 days.

The repentant thief has the Promise of immortality, which will be conferred on all whose name is found in the Book of Life. AFTER the Millennium.
Revelation 20:11-15
Until then, he will 'sleep' in his grave, just as Job, David and all who have died in faith since Adam. Acts 13:36
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Why don't you just rewrite the Bible?
Instead of re-interpreting it, like you have to do now. Note: that in the Lords Prayer, we say;;;;deliver us from evil....
Does that mean we are asking the Lord to take us away from evil, or to protect us from evil?

Saying; ' We will not enter the Tribulation', is wrong and contradicts Rev 12:17 Humans can only 'dwell on the earth'.
There are martyrs in Rev 20:4. They get there from Rev 12:17. Those are new converts in the Trib being killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ. You do not factor in the tremendous work of the 144k and the 2W.

You also ignore the facts from Rev 6:10 and Rev 9:4-6. No believers enter the Trib. Jesus said in Rev 3:10, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” The hour of trial (7-year Trib) envelops the whole world. We are not on Earth; Jesus means exactly that in Rev 3:10.

You refuse to accept the truth of this sequence that will be fulfilled: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, and John 14:3. We are raptured to Heaven pre-Trib. Paul confirms the TIMING of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10. Rev 6:4 confirms God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal. That verse fully validates that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

1 Th 4:16-17 are the only verses that align with Acts 1:11. Those verses occur pre-Trib per 1 Th 1:10. The pre-Trib rapture is therefore prophesied to occur in the next return of Jesus Christ, in strict accordance with Acts 1:9-11. Those are biblical facts.

You are still quoting verses whose contexts does not relate to any of the above. You haven’t refuted anything above because you can’t refute anything above because it is all 100% biblical.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Sure; those verses both refer to what will happen when Jesus Returns. NOT before and NOTHING to do with a rapture to heaven.
That idea is a lie from the father of lies.

You have to carefully select the definition of 'deliver', from the other meanings of that word.
Thinking it means a rapture removal is wrong, because such a thing is never mentioned in the context, or anywhere in the Bible.

You avoided the Lords Prayer, i quoted.
Are we praying to be raptured when we say: deliver us from evil......
John 17:15 answers this very well - I do not pray for You to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

The idea of a rapture to heaven of anyone. is false and cannot happen.
You have no biblical proof to back up your reply. All you offer are verses that are out of context.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Jesus didn't go to heaven that day. 1 Peter 3:19
He only Ascended to heaven after 40 days.

The repentant thief has the Promise of immortality, which will be conferred on all whose name is found in the Book of Life. AFTER the Millennium.
Revelation 20:11-15
Until then, he will 'sleep' in his grave, just as Job, David and all who have died in faith since Adam. Acts 13:36
Luke 23:42-43 (ESV): And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus said: “… today you will be with me in paradise.” —— What does “today” mean? What does “in” mean?

Are you saying paradise isn’t real? Do you have another place from which God will gather the dead in Christ to fulfill 1 Th 4:14?

John 20:17 (ESV): Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

From the tomb, Jesus ascended to Heaven. He clearly later returned and spent 40 days on Earth.
 
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Butch5

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Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this
NO. Read Mathew 24. It's as clear as day.
 
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keras

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There are martyrs in Rev 20:4. They get there from Rev 12:17. Those are new converts in the Trib being killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ. You do not factor in the tremendous work of the 144k and the 2W.
It is obvious from all of Rev 12, that they are already Christians. I agree that the GT martyrs will come from those described in Rev 12:17 and I agree that some may be new converts.
Revelation 12 is a complete refutation of the rapture theory. The Christian peoples will be divided into two groups, as per Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2b, one taken to safety for the 1260 days of the Great Trib and the other must endure the rule of the 'beast'. NO rapture/ removal!
this sequence that will be fulfilled: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, and John 14:3. We are raptured to Heaven pre-Trib. Paul confirms the TIMING of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10. Rev 6:4 confirms God’s wrath begins in the 2nd seal. That verse fully validates that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.
Confused and biased nonsense.
You have no biblical proof to back up your reply. All you offer are verses that are out of context.
How is the Lords Prayer; out of context?
Your avoidance and almost hysterical accusations, are becoming tiresome.
The Word - deliver, does not necessarily mean 'remove', its normal meaning in that context; is to receive support and protection. Which is how it is meant in the Lords Prayer. And in 1 Thess 1:10.
From the tomb, Jesus ascended to Heaven. He clearly later returned and spent 40 days on Earth.
Just one example of how you ignore what scripture actually says and quote your own opinion as fact.
Doing that does have consequences. We will be Judged for all our words and actions.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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It is obvious from all of Rev 12, that they are already Christians. I agree that the GT martyrs will come from those described in Rev 12:17 and I agree that some may be new converts.
Revelation 12 is a complete refutation of the rapture theory. The Christian peoples will be divided into two groups, as per Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2b, one taken to safety for the 1260 days of the Great Trib and the other must endure the rule of the 'beast'. NO rapture/ removal!

Confused and biased nonsense.

How is the Lords Prayer; out of context?
Your avoidance and almost hysterical accusations, are becoming tiresome.
The Word - deliver, does not necessarily mean 'remove', its normal meaning in that context; is to receive support and protection. Which is how it is meant in the Lords Prayer. And in 1 Thess 1:10.

Just one example of how you ignore what scripture actually says and quote your own opinion as fact.
Doing that does have consequences. We will be Judged for all our words and actions.
Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who d
Sure; those verses both refer to what will happen when Jesus Returns. NOT before and NOTHING to do with a rapture to heaven.
That idea is a lie from the father of lies.

You have to carefully select the definition of 'deliver', from the other meanings of that word.
Thinking it means a rapture removal is wrong, because such a thing is never mentioned in the context, or anywhere in the Bible.

You avoided the Lords Prayer, i quoted.
Are we praying to be raptured when we say: deliver us from evil......
John 17:15 answers this very well - I do not pray for You to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

The idea of a rapture to heaven of anyone. is false and cannot happen.



In the verse above, those crying out are former unbelievers who came to Christ in the Trib. They then gave testimony of Jesus Christ, and they were martyred. They are the first group of the GM. They cite only one other group: those who dwell on the earth. Those folks are proven unbelievers from the verse above.

No believers enter the Trib. Jesus would agree with me. He said in Rev 3:10, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.” Jesus, too, would also tell you, “No believes will enter the Trib.”

Rev 13:8 (ESV); all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Rev 12 shows converted unbelievers, who hold to their testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:11). I know that because the 144k are the 2W are active. The 2W start their ministry shortly before the 2nd half. That is provable by Rev. Again, no believers will enter the Trib. All believers, including all who died in Christ, are raptured pre-Trib. It is irrefutable that the rapture will happen pre-Trib. That’s because the next p
It is obvious from all of Rev 12, that they are already Christians. I agree that the GT martyrs will come from those described in Rev 12:17 and I agree that some may be new converts.
Revelation 12 is a complete refutation of the rapture theory. The Christian peoples will be divided into two groups, as per Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2b, one taken to safety for the 1260 days of the Great Trib and the other must endure the rule of the 'beast'. NO rapture/ removal!

Confused and biased nonsense.

How is the Lords Prayer; out of context?
Your avoidance and almost hysterical accusations, are becoming tiresome.
The Word - deliver, does not necessarily mean 'remove', its normal meaning in that context; is to receive support and protection. Which is how it is meant in the Lords Prayer. And in 1 Thess 1:10.

Just one example of how you ignore what scripture actually says and quote your own opinion as fact.
Doing that does have consequences. We will be Judged for all our words and actions.
All martyrs are described as giving testimony of Jesus Christ. In Rev 12:17 (ESV), we find … those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

In Rev 6:9 (ESV): … who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

In Rev 20:4 (ESV): … beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, …

You still ignore the tremendous work of the 144k and the 2W. They both are hard at work in the GT. The 144k start in the first half (hence the martyrs in Rev 6:9-11 — the first group of the GM). The 2W join in shortly before the 2nd half (hence the martyrs in Rev 20:4 — the 2nd group of the GM).

Your theory of seals 1 - 5 already being open is destroyed. The GM could not appear in Rev 7 without the first group of the GM resulting from the tremendous martyrdom in Rev 6:9-11.

You are ignoring that “deliver” has at least two definitions. Here’s the second usage of “deliverance” in the Bible, courtesy of Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology:

The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [ נָשַׁל ] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [ פָּלַט ] ("make an escape"), malat [ מָלַט , מָלַט ] ("to cause to escape"), halas [ חָלַץ , חָלַץ ] (to "draw out"), and yasa [ מֹושִׁיעַ , ישַׁע , יָשַׁע ] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger.

Apostle Paul, the vessel through which the TIMING of the rapture was taught, wrote that timing in 1 Th 1:10. That verse only needs a certifiable form of God’s wrath to appear at the start of the Trib to succeed in its pre-Trib timing. Rev 6:4 delivers with wars all over the world happening simultaneously — a worldwide scale of warfare never seen before the Trib. Rev 6:4 is the 2nd seal. That’s the certifiable form of God’s wrath that completes the fulfillment of 1 Th 1:10.

You haven’t refuted the pre-Trib rapture. It is the centerpiece of the next return of Jesus Christ, per Acts 1:9-11.
 
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keras

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You haven’t refuted the pre-Trib rapture.
The scriptures do that. A rapture removal to heaven of anyone, is just never stated in the Bible.
Please post a verse that actually states people will go to live in heaven. Only a few people have visited heaven; just in a spiritual way.

If you don't or can't, then you are guilty of false teaching.
It is the centerpiece of the next return of Jesus Christ, per Acts 1:9-11.
This is a straight out lie, no one gets taken off the earth.
Those Christians who have already proved their faith will be kept safe during the Great Trib, on earth. Revelation 12:13-16
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The scriptures do that. A rapture removal to heaven of anyone, is just never stated in the Bible.
Please post a verse that actually states people will go to live in heaven. Only a few people have visited heaven; just in a spiritual way.

If you don't or can't, then you are guilty of false teaching.

This is a straight out lie, no one gets taken off the earth.
Those Christians who have already proved their faith will be kept safe during the Great Trib, on earth. Revelation 12:13-16
2 Cor 12:2 (ESV): And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Luke 16:23 (NIV): In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ——- Abraham and Lazarus are in Paradise.

Rev 7:9-12 (NIV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
 
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JulieB67

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You haven’t refuted anything above because you can’t refute anything above because it is all 100% biblical.
You really need to let these verses sink in.

II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

II Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto unto fables."


This is prophecy that has come to pass. The pretrib rapture is a fable. Every verse you have posted to support it is talking about the second coming. Heaven must hold onto him until the fulfillment of all things. To say otherwise is not biblical. Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation.
 
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Oseas

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"Revelation 11:15-19
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(world of Devil)are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18And the nations were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of GOD was(will be)opened in heaven,and there was seen(then will be seen)in his temple the ark of his testament.

Re.21:8-But the fearful(COWARDS),and unbelieving,and the abominable,and murderers,and whoremongers,and sorcerers,and idolaters,and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.

Get ready

1Corinthians 15:24-27

24The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and power. (according 2Peter 3:7-18)

25For he must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


27For GOD hath put all things under His feet.But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.


Get ready

Revelation 21:2-4
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from GOD out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and GOD himself shall be with them, and be their GOD. And GOD shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. <->Luke 20:35-36

Are THE PEOPLE ready? they that are ready will be with Him to the marriage: and the door is shut. Unfortunately, the foolish virgins still are far away buying oil."
 
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Oseas

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Daniel 2:40-49
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the GOD of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall BREAK IN PIECES and CONSUME all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

48 Then the king made Daniel a great man
, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.

49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

Get ready
 
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keras

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Please post a verse that actually states people will go to live in heaven. Only a few people have visited heaven; just in a spiritual way.

If you don't or can't, then you are guilty of false teaching.
2 Cor 12:2 (ESV): And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Luke 16:23 (NIV): In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ——- Abraham and Lazarus are in Paradise.

Rev 7:9-12 (NIV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
FAIL
None of those verses say the Lord will take people to live in heaven.

2 Cor 12:2 (ESV): And I know that this man was caught up into paradise....
That was just Paul; in the Spirit. He didn't stay there.

Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Just correct the grammar. The comma is after today, not before.

Luke 16:23 (NIV): In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ——- Abraham and Lazarus are in Paradise.
This in in no way a definitive scripture of our destination after death. It is merely a warning to us that this life is our only chance for Eternal life.

Rev 7:9-12 (NIV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude....../.
That crowd of people are those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord for protection in the just happened Sixth Seal disaster. They are on earth, in Jerusalem, where Jesus reveals Himself to them. 1 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1

The rapture to heaven theory has no proper support in the Bible. It is a false teaching and cannot happen.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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FAIL
None of those verses say the Lord will take people to live in heaven.

2 Cor 12:2 (ESV): And I know that this man was caught up into paradise....
That was just Paul; in the Spirit. He didn't stay there.

Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Just correct the grammar. The comma is after today, not before.

Luke 16:23 (NIV): In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ——- Abraham and Lazarus are in Paradise.
This in in no way a definitive scripture of our destination after death. It is merely a warning to us that this life is our only chance for Eternal life.

Rev 7:9-12 (NIV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude....../.
That crowd of people are those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord for protection in the just happened Sixth Seal disaster. They are on earth, in Jerusalem, where Jesus reveals Himself to them. 1 Thess 1:10, Revelation 14:1

The rapture to heaven theory has no proper support in the Bible. It is a false teaching and cannot happen.
This is what you said: Please post a verse that actually states people will go to live in heaven.

The thief in Luke 23:43 and Lazarus in Luke 16:23 both died and went to live in paradise. Therefore, all believers who die first go to live in paradise.

Rev 2:7 (NIV): Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Paradise is in Heaven. Hades is in Hell, but not yet in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).
 
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keras

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The thief in Luke 23:43 and Lazarus in Luke 16:23 both died and went to live in paradise. Therefore, all believers who die first go to live in paradise.

Rev 2:7 (NIV): Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Paradise is in Heaven. Hades is in Hell, but not yet in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).
You make false claims.
The Bible never says that the thief or Lazarus actually live in Paradise. Provided their names are found in the Book of Life; they will; but only after the GWT Judgment.

Rev 2:7 does not say when that Promise will be fulfilled.
It will happen AFTER the Millennium, as per Revelation 21:1-7

Using those scriptures to support the rapture, shows how you really have no proper proof of that belief. It is false teaching and will never happen.
 
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