Voddie Baucham sermon - "Why Keep the Sabbath Holy?"

[BobRyan]

The difference is that letting a gentile die on the seventh day is not salvation work.

I never claimed that people have to kill gentiles so that the Sabbath can be kept. You might want to check your logic.

Letting a plague spread on the seventh day is not a salvation work.

If your trying to find fault with what God does on Sabbath - take it up with him.

He points to the Gen 2:1`-3 event where God rested as the all-sufficient justification for Sabbath keeping in Ex 20:11
IF you want to argue that in Gen 2:1-3 God is sending plagues and killing people - go ahead make your case with God on that one.,

Before the law, there were never any rules about how to observe the seventh day.

Before Exodus 20 there is no "do not take God's name in vain" command recorded in scripture
But before Exodus 20 we do have Exodus 16 for restrictions about what can be done on Sabbath.

Your arguments are "with the text".

Isa 66:23 says "from one Sabbath to the next," which means "every day."

1. Not one single example in all of the OT where "Daily" is translated "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
2. We do have examples where "from year to year" means "once per year" in the OT
3. In Is 66 there are TWO cycles "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" so then two cycles not just one. What we do NOT have in Is 66:23 is "from daily and from daily" as you seem to suggest.

You're keeping enough distance from the details on this topic to get to some rather short-lived suggestions.

No wonder even the Sunday-keeping Christian scholarship on planet Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

 

[Cornelius8L]

I never claimed that people have to kill gentiles so that the Sabbath can be kept. You might want to check your logic.
If your trying to find fault with what God does on Sabbath - take it up with him.

I've never said that you say killing gentiles is a way to keep the Sabbath. I'm saying that God decides who lives and who dies, and on the seventh day, He let the gentiles die. The logic here is that God still works on the seventh day because He only stops working to do creation work. And I don't think it's important to find fault in God because God can do whatever He wants and I'm fine with that.

He points to the Gen 2:1`-3 event where God rested as the all-sufficient justification for Sabbath keeping in Ex 20:11
IF you want to argue that in Gen 2:1-3 God is sending plagues and killing people - go ahead make your case with God on that one.,

And my point is that Genesis 2:1–3 says there is a seventh day and that God made it holy by resting from creation work, not from doing secular work, because God still does secular work on the seventh day to this day. So, when we say that God rested in Gen. 2:1-3, we are only talking about the creation work.

Before Exodus 20 there is no "do not take God's name in vain" command recorded in scripture
But before Exodus 20 we do have Exodus 16 for restrictions about what can be done on Sabbath.

John 15:22 explains what happened in Exodus 16 - “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.” - God has the authority to tell us what to do at any time.

Your arguments are "with the text".
1. Not one single example in all of the OT where "Daily" is translated "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
2. We do have examples where "from year to year" means "once per year" in the OT
3. In Is 66 there are TWO cycles "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" so then two cycles not just one. What we do NOT have in Is 66:23 is "from daily and from daily" as you seem to suggest.

You're keeping enough distance from the details on this topic to get to some rather short-lived suggestions.

I'm using Jesus's reasoning, since we worship God every day. How do humans "come to worship God," according to Jesus? What matters is not the location, but the truth and the spirit (John 4:23-24). Prior to Christ, people followed the law of Moses and worshiped at the designated location, even for Is 66:23 (Deut 12). If you follow the OT law, you can only go to the right place at the right time, because we are limited by time and space, but if we follow Christ, we can get there anytime and anywhere. The New Testament is proof that people meet every day, and Paul's letters also explain it, but let's not talk about that again in this thread.

No wonder even the Sunday-keeping Christian scholarship on planet Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

Jesus really doesn't care if the Pharisees keep the rules. He answered their accusations because they were trying to make other people follow their traditions.

 

[BobRyan]

I've never said that you say killing gentiles is a way to keep the Sabbath. I'm saying that God decides who lives and who dies, and on the seventh day, He let the gentiles die.

You are conflating two different topics

The Sabbath topic;
Ex 20:11 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is no indication at all that the rest that God took as specified in Ex 20:11 is "God killing gentiles" or "allowing gentiles to be killed". You are subject switching - in the extreme.

Gen 2:1-3
And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

There is no indication at all that the rest that God took as specified in Gen 2:1-3 is a case of "God killing gentiles" or "allowing gentiles to be killed". You are subject switching - in the extreme.

The logic here is that God still works on the seventh day

God points to a very specific day and says that God's actions on that day determine the binding obligation for all mankind regarding His own 7th day rest each week for mankind - made blessed and holy day - sanctified and set apart.

How is this even the least bit confusing in your POV?

And my point is that Genesis 2:1–3 says there is a seventh day and that God made it holy by resting from creation work,

And He points to that act "ALONE" as being the thing that binds all mankind to observance of it each week a memorial of God's act in Gen 2:1-3 and in fact His actions in that entire week.

Did He not "say it right"? in your POV?

not from doing secular work,

God is the one that says that keeping the day means no secular work .. this is not something I authored

Is 58:13 - no secular activity on "My Holy Day"

Is your argument "with the text"? Did He not "say it right" your POV?

In Ex 16 - they were not to kindle a fire or gather manna on the Sabbath - too secular - the day is 'set apart' it is "Sanctified" , a Holy Day "The Holy Day of the Lord" Is 58:13

I don't see how this part is the least bit confusing.

I'm using Jesus's reasoning, since we worship God every day.

Jesus does not say

"Stop worshipping God every day if you want to keep the Sabbath Holy" -- nobody says that before the cross or after it.

Jesus condemns setting one of God's commandments aside via "making stuff up" ... creative logic gymnastics in Mark 7:6-13

Jesus really doesn't care if the Pharisees keep the rules. He answered their accusations because they were trying to make other people follow their traditions.

You keep holding the details in the text at so great a distance, that almost any suggestion will do.

Here is what the text actually says -- note "the details".


Mark 7:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus hammers the idea of trying to chip away at the commandments of God.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm using Jesus's reasoning, since we worship God every day.

Jesus never uses such an argument to delete the scripture in Is 66:23 about all mankind coming to worship before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the new earth - for all eternity after the cross.

Daily worship has always been the way of true followers of God from Genesis to this very day. But that does not delete God's "Holy day" - a day where no secular activity is allowed to interfere.

 

[Cornelius8L]

You are conflating two different topics

The Sabbath topic;
Ex 20:11 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

There is no indication at all that the rest that God took as specified in Ex 20:11 is "God killing gentiles" or "allowing gentiles to be killed". You are subject switching - in the extreme.

Gen 2:1-3
And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

There is no indication at all that the rest that God took as specified in Gen 2:1-3 is a case of "God killing gentiles" or "allowing gentiles to be killed". You are subject switching - in the extreme.

The Bible is not a fairy tale that has nothing to do with our real lives. God did make the world, and God is the One who holds life, but gentiles do die on the seventh day. We can't deny that God does all of these things. Unless we don't believe that God controls everyone's life.

God points to a very specific day and says that God's actions on that day determine the binding obligation for all mankind regarding His own 7th day rest each week for mankind - made blessed and holy day - sanctified and set apart.

How is this even the least bit confusing in your POV?
And He points to that act "ALONE" as being the thing that binds all mankind to observance of it each week a memorial of God's act in Gen 2:1-3 and in fact His actions in that entire week.

Did He not "say it right"? in your POV?
God is the one that says that keeping the day means no secular work .. this is not something I authored

Is 58:13 - no secular activity on "My Holy Day"

Is your argument "with the text"? Did He not "say it right" your POV?

In Ex 16 - they were not to kindle a fire or gather manna on the Sabbath - too secular - the day is 'set apart' it is "Sanctified" , a Holy Day "The Holy Day of the Lord" Is 58:13

I don't see how this part is the least bit confusing.

Jesus never uses such an argument to delete the scripture in Is 66:23 about all mankind coming to worship before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in the new earth - for all eternity after the cross.

Daily worship has always been the way of true followers of God from Genesis to this very day. But that does not delete God's "Holy day" - a day where no secular activity is allowed to interfere.

In real faith, if God doesn't do secular work on the seventh day, we won't see anything on the seventh day. And I was just talking about figuring out what God does and doesn't do on the very seventh day. You started the conversation about what He instructed about the seventh day, and I'm fine with that. But are Lev 23:3 and Isa 58:13 not Sabbath ordinances? Gen 2:1–3 doesn't say anything about keeping the Sabbath, and the ordinances for keeping the Sabbath were introduced, including the Sabbath extra sacrifices, but the cross took them away. We can't pick and choose from the "to-do list" of how to keep the Sabbath from the ordinances. Isa 66:23 talks about the future, and in "the future", the apostles gather to worship God every day. It's not confusing at all. Is Lev 23:3 not an ordinance? And is Ex 16 an ordinance or a commandment?

“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them” – It was all about creating. And did Jesus confuse when He the read “but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—" and said that God let the priest break the sabbath by doing priestly work, even though God "could have" meant "any work" meant secular work? Didn't God make it clear when he said, "Do not work"? If priestly work is an ordinance that was taken away by the cross and "any work" is still in the commandment, then no one should leave the house on the seventh day.

Jesus does not say

"Stop worshipping God every day if you want to keep the Sabbath Holy" -- nobody says that before the cross or after it.

I'm not sure how you made this connection.

Jesus condemns setting one of God's commandments aside via "making stuff up" ... creative logic gymnastics in Mark 7:6-13

"Making stuff up" is like saying that preaching on the Sabbath is keeping the Sabbath. It can also include those who bring back laws that the cross took away.

You keep holding the details in the text at so great a distance, that almost any suggestion will do.

Here is what the text actually says -- note "the details".

Actually, all we need to do is see the pattern of the truth. Paul wasn't very detailed when he said, “Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Cor 6:12) – He only gave a few examples. He didn't list everything.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus really doesn't care if the Pharisees keep the rules. He answered their accusations because they were trying to make other people follow their traditions.

You keep holding the details in the text at so great a distance, that almost any suggestion will do.

Here is what the text actually says -- note "the details".


Mark 7:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus hammers the idea of trying to chip away at the commandments of God.

Actually, all we need to do is see the pattern of the truth.

All we need to do is read the actual text, and note the details in Christ's teaching above - not skim past them.

Paul wasn't very detailed when he said, “Everything is permissible for me,”

Paul was very detailed in Eph 6:2 when he quotes directly from the Law of Moses as applicable to Christians -

"'Honor your father and mother' - which is the first commandment with a promise"
James is very specific in James 2 when he quotes from the law of Moses.
Paul is very specific in Rom 7 when he quotes from the Law of Moses
Christ is very specific in Mark 7:6-13 when He quotes from the Law of Moses as He also does in Matt 22 and in Matt 19

but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. (1 Cor 6:12)

without context one can get to the idea that "do not take God's name in vain is now deleted" because of a surface skimming of 1 Cor 6.

so then "more detail" in 1 Cor 6 is my choice

1 Cor 6:

7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather suffer the wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves do wrong and defraud. And this to your brothers and sisters!​

​

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither​

• the sexually immoral,
• nor idolaters,
• nor adulterers,
• nor homosexuals,
• 10 nor thieves,
• nor the greedy,
• nor those habitually drunk,
• nor verbal abusers,
• nor swindlers,

will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

"Making stuff up" is like saying that preaching on the Sabbath is keeping the Sabbath.

you can't be serious

Gospel preaching is what we find "every Sabbath" in the NT - and in every case of that they are in a worship service as the context shows.

By contrast there is NT statement saying that they had "gospel preaching every weekday 1".

skimming past all those Bible details can get one to almost any suggestion

 

[Emun]

@BobRyan
The Bible says that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Why won't you accept that?

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan
The Bible says that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Why won't you accept that?

Jesus was being accused of that by His false accusers.

The Bible also says the trees held an election in the book of Judges - we accept that "context matters".

Jesus says "Which one of you can actually prove I have sinned? -- 'convict Me of sin" John 8:48 - same author
"Sin IS transgression of the Law" - 1 John 3:4

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Explains what Christ's enemies were thinking - but as scripture says in Heb 4

Heb 4:
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin

 

[Cornelius8L]

You keep holding the details in the text at so great a distance, that almost any suggestion will do.

Here is what the text actually says -- note "the details".


Mark 7:
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Jesus hammers the idea of trying to chip away at the commandments of God.


All we need to do is read the actual text, and note the details in Christ's teaching above - not skim past them.


Paul was very detailed in Eph 6:2 when he quotes directly from the Law of Moses as applicable to Christians -

"'Honor your father and mother' - which is the first commandment with a promise"
James is very specific in James 2 when he quotes from the law of Moses.
Paul is very specific in Rom 7 when he quotes from the Law of Moses
Christ is very specific in Mark 7:6-13 when He quotes from the Law of Moses as He also does in Matt 22 and in Matt 19



without context one can get to the idea that "do not take God's name in vain is now deleted" because of a surface skimming of 1 Cor 6.

so then "more detail" in 1 Cor 6 is my choice

1 Cor 6:

7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather suffer the wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves do wrong and defraud. And this to your brothers and sisters!​

​

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither​

• the sexually immoral,
• nor idolaters,
• nor adulterers,
• nor homosexuals,
• 10 nor thieves,
• nor the greedy,
• nor those habitually drunk,
• nor verbal abusers,
• nor swindlers,

will inherit the kingdom of God.

you can't be serious

Gospel preaching is what we find "every Sabbath" in the NT - and in every case of that they are in a worship service as the context shows.

By contrast there is NT statement saying that they had "gospel preaching every weekday 1".

skimming past all those Bible details can get one to almost any suggestion

What do you think Paul was thinking when he wrote this, “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,” (1 Cor 3:2) and “We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing.” (Heb 5:11)? Do you think that NT said it all when he also said, “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.” (1 Cor 13:10)

But since you wanted actual texts, here they are:

• “For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,” (Heb 7:18)
• "And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death." (Rom 7:10)
• "Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory," (2 Cor 3:7)

Commandments vs. traditions in regards to the Sabbath, the new Sabbath commandment is to rest and have faith in God. The old Sabbath commandment is to assemble with sabbath sacrifices, but neither of these ever requires preaching.

"Making stuff up" is like saying that preaching on the Sabbath is keeping the Sabbath. It can also include those who bring back laws that the cross took away.

Yes, I meant what I said when I wrote this. Where is the detailed commandment that says "preaching on the Sabbath is keeping the Sabbath"?

The gospel is preached every day in the NT, not just on the Sabbath. It happens on Sabbath because Sabbath is part of every day.

Also, do we remember that a fruit of the Holy Spirit was called "self-control"? Why would anyone who has self-control break the former commandments by nature?