"virgin" in Isaiah 7:14

[Yahudim]

I like my interpretations with confirmations. Most people do. A couple of millenium ago their were at least two writers of inspired text that wrote the contested word from the passage in Isaiah as "virgin". One was in a paraphrase of the passage; one was in an account of it's fulfillment.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanu'el, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luk 1:26 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gavri'el was sent from God to a city of the Galil, named Natzeret,
Luk 1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Yosef, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Miriam.
Luk 1:28 Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"
Luk 1:29 But when she saw him, she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered what kind of salutation this might be.
Luk 1:30 The angel said to her, "Don't be afraid, Miriam, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Yeshua.'

In both cases they used a word translated as virgin.

Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
G3933 παρθένος parthenos par-then'-os Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

So, there were writers that chose that translation when writing to a VERY critical audience a couple of thousand years ago. Their intended audience, culturally speaking, had basically one book that they read from every week - the Tanakh. This controversy (if you can call it that) did not come to pass until much later on, after a well orchestrated campaign against the believers in Yeshua had been put into effect. This lack of a public outcry early on speaks volumes to me.

 

[bethdinsmore]

good point about the original hearers, talmidim.

 

[Yahudim]

good point about the original hearers, talmidim.

Thank you. Funny how that works, huh?

 

[Vaneeza Malkah]

good post talmidim. I personally think Miriam/Maryam/Mary was a virgin and young but that's just my speculation (the young part).

 

[Israeli]

Shalom Talmidim,

Thanks for pointing out the obvious because unfortunately people often miss the obvious.

Israeli

 

[Bruce101]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

Oops!

Bruce

 

[chokmah]

I like my interpretations with confirmations. Most people do. A couple of millenium ago their were at least two writers of inspired text that wrote the contested word from the passage in Isaiah as "virgin". One was in a paraphrase of the passage; one was in an account of it's fulfillment.




In both cases they used a word translated as virgin.



So, there were writers that chose that translation when writing to a VERY critical audience a couple of thousand years ago. Their intended audience, culturally speaking, had basically one book that they read from every week - the Tanakh. This controversy (if you can call it that) did not come to pass until much later on, after a well orchestrated campaign against the believers in Yeshua had been put into effect. This lack of a public outcry early on speaks volumes to me.

The emboldened is predicated on the belief that the books are from the time of Jesus instead of much later, and that they were in circulation to quite an extent.

As is the case in the modern day, if someone thinks a book is fictitious; they don't give it a second thought instead of causing an uproar. That is just as much a valid consideration as the part you state above.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


The key to the verse, IMO, is the words "a sign". If the correct translation was that a "young woman" shall conceive, how would that be considered a "sign" (miraculous event) ?? That was the norm, young women had children, hardly miraculous. Therefore, the word, correctly translated "virgin" would constitute a miraculous event indeed. Only God's Spirit could bring about conception outside of the normal - therefore giving credence to the One born as being "Immanuel - God with us" !!


Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

The Lord himself; the word "himself" is emphatic; the Lord will do this without being asked, for his own glory.
Shall give you a sign; Ahaz had refused a sign addressed to sight. God now promises the people a sign addressed to faith; a sign therefore for the believing portion of the people.

A virgin shall conceive; compare Mt 1:23; Lu 1:34-35.

While God punishes the unbelief and rebellion of his people, he will, for his own glory, fulfil all his promises to Zion, the sum of which is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin for our redemption.

(Family Bible Notes Commentary)


Ray

 

[CovenantRay]

Shalom:

Out of curiosity, rather than to fuel the debate further, can anyone reference the Septuagent version of this verse and analyze the Greek forms used? If I recall, the Septuagent version was completed around 270 BCE. I do not have access to one.

Todah,

CovenantRay

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom:

Out of curiosity, rather than to fuel the debate further, can anyone reference the Septuagent version of this verse and analyze the Greek forms used? If I recall, the Septuagent version was completed around 270 BCE. I do not have access to one.

Todah,

CovenantRay

Here you go Ray,

This was retrieved at: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=virgin&section=6&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search

Isa 7:14 [ Greek Font Size: – / + ] [ View in: BHS ] Therefore the Lord himself shall give (8799) you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear (8802) a son, and shall call (8804) his name Immanuel *.

dia touto dwsei kuriov autov umin shmeion idou h parqenov en gastri ecei kai tecetai uion kai kaleseiv to onoma autou Emmanouhl​

Then when you click on "virgin" you get this:​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 05959 [/font]hml([font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/font] hml(
[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]from (05958)[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]`almah[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]al-maw'[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TWOT[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Noun Feminine[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]1630b[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. virgin, young woman
   1. of marriageable age
   2. maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Translated Words[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]KJV (7) - damsels, 1; maid, 2; virgin, 4; NAS (7) - girl, 1; maid, 1; maiden, 1; maidens, 3; virgin, 1;[/font]

BUT WHEN YOU CLICK ON parqeÑnov YOU GET THIS:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 3933[/font]parqeÑnov[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/font] parqeÑnov [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]of unknown origin[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parthenos[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]par-then'-os[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TDNT[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Noun Feminine[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]5:826,786[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. a virgin
   1. a marriageable maiden
   2. a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
   3. one's marriageable daughter
2. a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
   
   1. one who has never had intercourse with women

[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Translated Words[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]KJV (14) - virgin, 14; NAS (15) - chaste, 1; virgin, 9; virgin's, 1; virgins, 4;[/font]

Proving that the rabbis that were the original translators of the Septuagint, centuries before Yeshua, took this word in the Hebrew to mean "virgin".

1. The Rabbis that translated the Septuagint took the meaning as VIRGIN.
2. The Rabbis interpreted the word as meaning VIRGIN 7 times in the Talmud
3. Two different writers in the wildly popular Brit Chadashah (longest running best seller in the history of the world) interpreted the word to mean VIRGIN.

I think it is time for the nay-sayers to cite a case where this word WASN'T interpreted as VIRGIN in scripture.


It seems to me, (not pointing any fingers mind you) as though the only ones that do NOT interpret this scripture in this manner are the anti-missionaries of modern times. They seem to have a specific agenda outside the scope of scholarship that has colored their findings. I think that perhaps these sources have influenced the opinion of some of the well intentioned posters on this thread. I say this because the scriptural, historical and contextual evidence overwhelmingly supports the translation of this word as VIRGIN in this passage from all ancient sources.

 

[chokmah]

Love to be involved but:

I'm sorry, folks. I can only respond with questions and/or fellowship posts.

Feel free to bring these things up outside of CO

 

[CovenantRay]

Shalom:

Thank you Talmidim for the link and the analysis for this. My apologies to those without the messianic scroll for the inability to respond to this in this forum. Unfortunately, my strengths are not in analysis of Hebrew, Greek, nor Aramaic.

Talmidim makes a valid point: If the 70 (or so) Rabbis translated the Tenakh around 270 BCE and chose a word with that implication, isn't it clear that this was the Rabbinical thought nearly 3 centuries before the birth of Y'shua?

Just to be clear, there are more than 300 messianic prophecies in the Tenakh attributed to Y'shua, although some are rather technical, many are quite clear. My theology does not rest on the interpretation of this one word. Nor should yours.

I have not seen such furvor discussing the differences between the Ashkenazic Tenakh and the Sephardic Tenakh. Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53. [rhetorical] Why would European Jews wish to leave THAT out? The Isaiah scrolls found with the Dead Sea Scrolls clearly include the "disputed" chapter of Isaiah.

If this interests you, seek it out for yourself.

Stepping off of my soapbox now.... Next?

Todah,

CovenantRay

 

[Talmidah]

Most notably the Ashkenazic Tenakh omits Isaiah 53.

Hi CovenantRay,
Can you elaborate more on this? It something I've never heard before.

 

[CovenantRay]

Hi CovenantRay,
Can you elaborate more on this? It something I've never heard before.

Shabat Shalom:

The best I can do for right now is a link to a teaching, but I'll do my best to come up with some more formal references [It may take a little while]. I have requested a couple of my "sources" supply references if possible as well.

Here's what I have at this time:

Gospel in the Old Testament - Chuck Missler

http://server.firefighters.org/catalog/1998/00453.mp3

This is an MP3 file that is about 1 1/2 hours in length (windows media player will open on my system if I click on that link). The topic of the teaching is to explain the "Gospel" using only the Tenakh only, as was done in the book of Acts. It is a worthwhile "listen". I am fairly certain it is introduced in this teaching.

CovenantRay

 

[HaNotsri]

LOL There is no difference between the Ashkenazic Tan"kh and the Sphardic Tan"kh. That's rediculous. I wonder how many people who actually make these audacious claims know anything about Judaism at all? Tan"kh is Tan"Kh and it doesn't change in Judaism. The same Tan"kh for Ashkenazim, Sphardim, Haredim, Chassidim, Mizrachim, etc, etc, etc.

The ultimate Truth is what's important and we know how Jesus was conceived, birthed, and died. There are arguments across the board of the meanings of these words and really I don't think it's that important because we're not going to agree. In its plain meaning almah does mean young woman, but it can imply virginity. But it doesn't mean virgin explicitly, that is besulah. If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. You CANNOT be a besulah and be involved with those things in anyway. IF an old woman has never had sex in her entire life, she is a besulah...but she isn't an almah. There are differences in those terms. Isaiah 7:14 uses the word almah.

Talmidim,

Quit reading the internet and reading all the garbage you have about how rabbis interpret things. Rabbis don't translate things in the Talmud...they're not thinking as they learn and go back and forth how they would translate a word into English.

I agree that the term above was used and interpreted as Matthew suggests. But we have to admit that the Gospel writers were pushing an agenda when they wrote their accounts down. Matthew's purpose was to prove that Jesus was the Divine Messiah and so he is going to speak about His miraculous conception and birth. He interpreted that prophecy as referring to the Messiah as all of us Christians do. It still doesn't mean that's what the word explicitly means.

And consider the possibility that those soferim that wrote the Septuagint didn't have a better alternate word in Greek to translate almah. Maybe there isn't a Greek word that was comparable to almah and so parthenos (I think that's what they used as virgin) was used. I mean there are innumerable reasons (including that's how they interpreted the word almah as well, I am not denying that) as to why they chose the word.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

In Christ,

Michael

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

LOL There is no difference between the Ashkenazic Tan"kh and the Sphardic Tan"kh. That's rediculous. I wonder how many people who actually make these audacious claims know anything about Judaism at all? Tan"kh is Tan"Kh and it doesn't change in Judaism. The same Tan"kh for Ashkenazim, Sphardim, Haredim, Chassidim, Mizrachim, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe he meant the HafTorah?

 

[bethdinsmore]

QUOTE FROM HANOTSRI: If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. END QUOTE

Could you please tell us what verses you are referring to? Thanks.

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom Michael,

Thank you for your considered reply. May you be blessed. I take your input on good faith as having been offered in love and receive it with gratitude. Understand though, there are certain things of which I remain unconvinced. I have no intention of addressing the issue of redacted scripture. That would probably be a fruitless endeavor. I would however, like to answer your other points if I may.

The ultimate Truth is what's important and we know how Jesus was conceived, birthed, and died. There are arguments across the board of the meanings of these words and really I don't think it's that important because we're not going to agree.

I could not agree more that the ultimate truth is what is important. It may seem to you that hair splitting in this case is futile. Still I see another side to the issue. There is always a group of people that will attack a truth by chipping away at it's foundation in scripture. While this concession or that concession may seem unimportant in the overall scheme of things, they are important. To agree with an untruth by the sin of omission or laziness is to become untrue, albeit passively. It is best to settle the matter in question in a loving manner and with a steadfast eye toward His truth.

In its plain meaning almah does mean young woman, but it can imply virginity. But it doesn't mean virgin explicitly, that is besulah. If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah.

Perhaps in the literal definition of the word, but certainly not in a cultural sense. Maidens found to have relations out of wedlock were villified and often stoned to death. Is this the context you see as applying to Isaiah 7:14?

You CANNOT be a besulah and be involved with those things in anyway. IF an old woman has never had sex in her entire life, she is a besulah...but she isn't an almah. There are differences in those terms. Isaiah 7:14 uses the word almah.

Once again you are correct, but is this relevant? By applying the strictest literal definition without regard for context is to do yourself and others a disservice. I am familiar with these words and their literal and figurative definitions. What I find difficult to concede here is your strict adherence to the literal and your apparent disregard of the figurative. Those figurative definitions would not be included in the lexicon were it not for their popular usage. We must yield to context without departing from the plain meaning of the scripture.

Talmidim,

Quit reading the internet and reading all the garbage you have about how rabbis interpret things. Rabbis don't translate things in the Talmud...they're not thinking as they learn and go back and forth how they would translate a word into English.

Correct again that they do not translate. The point is that they interpret (the term I used in my post) according to the rules of PaRDeS. I was simply pointing out that this verse has been subject to their scrutiny and midrash. Do you know in what context they interpreted that verse? I'd be interested to know. It is my understanding that the Rabbis did indeed consider the words of the prophet to mean a young virginal maiden. Please feel free to correct me with quotes from Talmud.

I agree that the term above was used and interpreted as Matthew suggests. But we have to admit that the Gospel writers were pushing an agenda when they wrote their accounts down. Matthew's purpose was to prove that Jesus was the Divine Messiah and so he is going to speak about His miraculous conception and birth. He interpreted that prophecy as referring to the Messiah as all of us Christians do. It still doesn't mean that's what the word explicitly means.

So you don't believe Matthew was on the up and up? Maybe Luke took some liberties too? If that is your premise then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know how you go about evaluating scripture. My outlook is that context is everything. When I state for all to hear that ,"You're killin' me", the gentle reader understands that I mean this in a figurative sense.

I hope you have the same discernment.

I am equally convinced that the Rabbis did not take every word by it's literal definition and that Matthew and Luke were true to their accounts of the Word and to the Spirit.

And consider the possibility that those soferim that wrote the Septuagint didn't have a better alternate word in Greek to translate almah. Maybe there isn't a Greek word that was comparable to almah and so parthenos (I think that's what they used as virgin) was used. I mean there are innumerable reasons (including that's how they interpreted the word almah as well, I am not denying that) as to why they chose the word.

It has been my experience that a phrase is used when an accurate literal word is not available. When translating (or transliterating as in the case of the Septuagint) the literal always yeilds to the accurate. By my references, the accurate was an honored participant in the council of the soferim and no one has demonstrated otherwise. This being the case, your point about Matthew is moot in the face of the many confirmations to the contrary.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

In Christ,

Michael

These are my thoughts. Debate is healthy when done in love and in His Spirit. But even at the risk of a few ruffled feathers, His Truth is priceless and to be shared. It is my experience that the literal definition of a word is not necessarily the one intended. It is context that give us a glimpse at the intent of the author and it is the diligent student that is rewarded. I rely on the fact that the Word is inerrant in its original state. And where scripture has been eroded by the careless or faithless, the confirmations offered by the harmony of His Word will lead you back to His Truth. The confirmations from external sources are just gravy, and so far, there have been many.

b'Shalom v'Ahavah,

Phillip

 

[Yahudim]

QUOTE FROM HANOTSRI: If a young woman is raped, she is still an almah. If a young woman has sex outside of marriage, she is still an almah. END QUOTE

Could you please tell us what verses you are referring to? Thanks.

Good point Ms. Dinsmore. I would like to see those verses too.