"virgin" in Isaiah 7:14

[bethdinsmore]

Unger states that the word chosen for virgin there is correct, in that it only contains the idea of being continually chaste, without exception. Do you know where his info came from? What do Messianic Jews think about the use of virgin in that verse?

And where does the idea come from that some prophecies have a near and far fulfillment?

And was the only near fulfillment Isaiah's daughter? Wasn't there a near fulfillment where a virgin was involved?

And I had one person tell me that the Jewish Bible (English obviously) uses the word maiden in that verse. Is that true, and if so, which translation, and why? Is there a version the Messianic Jews agree with that uses the word "virgin"?

Thanks so much.
Aloha in Jesus

 

[DrMcDonald]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Messianic Jews are - I though they were ones who believed Jesus is the Messiah. Am I wrong? If so, what is that group called?

Yes bethdinsmore We do believe in Yeshua HaMoshiach, Binyamin does not speak for us only himself.

Do not let him shake your faith in Moshiach.

 

[bethdinsmore]

Yes bethdinsmore We do believe in Yeshua HaMoshiach, Binyamin does not speak for us only himself.

Do not let him shake your faith in Moshiach.

Thank you, friend. Yes, I am not shaken. And if you or other Messianic Jews have any input on my original post, I would like to hear it.
Aloha

 

[Sephania]

Are you speaking of almah?

 

[bethdinsmore]

Yes, I am.

 

[Talmidah]

And I had one person tell me that the Jewish Bible (English obviously) uses the word maiden in that verse. Is that true, and if so, which translation, and why?

I'm not getting into the main discussion you brought up (not the correct forum for me), but just wanted to bring up that some Christian bibles also use "maiden" or "young woman" in the verse.

Isaiah 7:14 in a few Christian translations (spanish translations mine):


New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Good News Translation (GNT)
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him "Immanuel.'

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Therefore Adonai himself will give you people a sign: the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us].

Hebrew Names Version (HNV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, an almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu'el.

The Bible in Basic English (BBE)
For this cause the Lord himself will give you a sign; a young woman is now with child, and she will give birth to a son, and she will give him the name Immanuel.

Nueva Version Internacional (NVI)
Por eso, el Señor mismo les dará una señal: La joven concebirá y dará a luz un hijo, y lo llamará Emanuel. (joven means girl or young lady)

Reina-Valera 1995
Por tanto, el Señor mismo os dará señal:
La virgen[a] concebirá
y dará a luz un hijo,
y le pondrá por nombre Emanuel. (In the footnotes: La virgen: El texto hebreo emplea aquí la palabra alma, que en otros contextos se ha traducido por muchacha o joven (cf. Gn 24.43; Ex 2.8; Sal 68.25; Cnt 6.8 ). Ese término designa a una muchacha joven, en edad de contraer matrimonio o incluso casada. ) Translation: The virgin: The Hebrew text used here is the word "alma", which in other contexts is translated as girl or young lady(cf. Gn 24.43; Ex 2.8; Sal 68.25; Cnt 6.8 ). The term refers to a young lady, of marriageable age, including one already married.

 

[bethdinsmore]

I noticed you mentioned the Complete Jewish Bible. Is that the one Messianic Jews usually use?

 

[Talmidah]

I noticed you mentioned the Complete Jewish Bible. Is that the one Messianic Jews usually use?

Many do, yes.

 

[DrMcDonald]

That is a good one, I also use the Orthodox Jewish Bible published by AFI.

Blessings
Mac

 

[Bon]

This article is an interesting perspective on the 'virgin' controversy.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/doctrine/almah.html

My Hebrew scriptures render the english translation of
Isaiah 7:14
Behold, the young woman IS with child, and she will bear a son, and shall call his name "Immanue-el"

I am not sure of the actual original transaltion "tense"...but my Hebrew bible translation is in the present tense....

The YOUNG WOMAN could no longer be a virgin, now that she IS with child.

I'd hazard a guess that Isaiah 7:14 is alluding to a virgin....after all he is the Messianic prophet....

Bon

 

[bethdinsmore]

thanks for the website article. It is most enlightening and helpful - apparently Unger (my OP) and the writer would agree.

I wonder why the tense is different in some versions (shall conceive) than in your Hebrew Bible. Strong's 2030 haaraah

 

[shmuel]

I wonder why the tense is different in some versions (shall conceive) than in your Hebrew Bible. Strong's 2030 haaraah

There is much debate about the verbal system of Biblical Hebrew, but most scholars would agree that there were not tenses in Biblical Hebrew like there are in Indo-European languages. For reference, modern Israeli Hebrew does have tenses. It uses the perfect for past tense, the imperfect for future, and the participle for present.

The word "harah" in Is 7:14 is an adjective (pregenant). The 3fs perfect verb from the same root is "haretah". The clause in Hebrew has no verb, just the adjective "harah" and the participle "yoledet" (giving birth, bringing forth), which is functioning as an adjective. The word for word translation of the clause is "behold the young woman pregnant and bringing forth son".

S

 

[bethdinsmore]

I see your point. Does your version not have haaraah?

Do I have your permission to show your statement (#13) to a friend of mine who occasionally teaches Hebrew? Never having studied it, I'm getting in a bit over my head. (Well, maybe more than a bit.) Thanks, I will wait to hear from you.

Monitors, as I understand it, I can do this if I have his permission. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Aloha in Jesus

 

[Israeli]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

 

[shmuel]

If the question was addressed to me:

The word "harah" occurs in the Masoretic text (I believe my copy is based on the Leningrad codex). The word is spelled he-resh-he with both vowels being qamats. Harah is a fs adjective. Harah as a verb is masculine, and thus would not agree with`almah in gender.

S

 

[bethdinsmore]

Thanks for the additional info, friends. Since some of it is over my head, I have asked my scholar friend to come in and take a look and explain your comments on the Hebrew to me. (I wish I had majored in Hebrew rather than Spanish.)

 

[HaNotsri]

Israeli,

You can't make such an assertion as the Talmud is:

A. Written in Aramaic
B. Translated in English by only three groups (as far as I know): Artscroll/Mesorah, Soncino, and Adin Steinsaltz

Where do you get your information from? Jewish men don't "translate" anything when they're learning Torah. They read it from the original-language text.

Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.

I am not questioning Matthew's interpretation of the word here, please don't think that.

Peace in Christ,
Michael HaNotsri

 

[chokmah]

Shalom,

The Jewish Rabbis say that the word ALMA in the Hebrew does not mean "virgin", it simply means a young maiden.

However in their own Talmud, they translated the word as "virgin" 7 times!

It seems as though there is some bias somewhere.


Israel.

Hmmm...

 

[chokmah]

Israeli,

You can't make such an assertion as the Talmud is:

A. Written in Aramaic
B. Translated in English by only three groups (as far as I know): Artscroll/Mesorah, Soncino, and Adin Steinsaltz

Where do you get your information from? Jewish men don't "translate" anything when they're learning Torah. They read it from the original-language text.

Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.

Good post.

I am not questioning Matthew's interpretation of the word here, please don't think that.

Peace in Christ,
Michael HaNotsri

Ahhhh.... come on, why not?

 

[bethdinsmore]

Israeli,

...Almah means a "young woman," though I did hear once it could mean "virgin" as well or it implies virginity. However, the strict Hebrew word for "virgin" is betulah, so I wonder why the author didn't use that word.
....Michael HaNotsri

I believe the website given in post #10 answers that beautifully if you or anyone is interested in reading it (20 pages long) - it basically agrees with Unger's summary that almah is a young woman who has always been chaste, while bethullah is a young woman who is very probably chaste, but not necessarily. In the website, it shows how bethullah is a young woman who lives in her parent's house, and is a sociological term. The young woman would have been guarded, and therefore would most likely have been chaste. Many verses are given for these conclusions. With lengthy bibliography.

Aloha in Jesus