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SilverSpoon

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We all know this one :

Matthew 1 : 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

However, it is fraught with problems :

1) This prophecy from Isaiah 7:14, is giving assurance to King Ahaz that his enemies will be defeated before "Immanuel" knows right from wrong, so unless Jesus was a young lad in the 8th century BC that doesn't work.

Isaiah 7: 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

2) The Hebrew word (almah) mistranslated here as "virgin" should be rendered young woman. Furthermore in Hebrew the pregnancy is present tense "behold, the young woman is with child", so unless Mary was pregnant with Jesus in the 8th century BC this doesn't work.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15938

3) Jesus is never referred to as Immanuel anywhere.

So how do Christians reconcile this?
 
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Jay Sea

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We all know this one :

Matthew 1 : 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

However, it is fraught with problems :

1) This prophecy from Isaiah 7, is giving assurance to King Ahaz, and is referring to something that will happen within his own lifetime, it is not at all messianic.

2) The Hebrew word (almah) mistranslated here as "virgin" should be rendered young woman.

3) Jesus is never referred to as Immanuel anywhere.

So how do Christians reconcile this?
It depends on what you consider prophecy. I agree with what you say and do not believe that the verses are prophecy and like many were collected after the fact. Ie after Yeshua's death.
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Jay Sea
 
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Pavel Mosko

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So how do Christians reconcile this?

Sounds like you have been reading articles from atheists of non Messianic Jews.

Reconciling it is easy. Their is an article in the forward of my "Jewish Study Bible" on Inner Biblical Interpretation that gives some answers that would apply. Probably the best answer is the concept that some verses are super charged with multiple levels of meanings because they are inspired by God. The verse situation where that applies from comes from Jeremiahs prophesy of 70 years of exile versus, Daniels Revelation of 70 7s,


2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.


Jeremiah, CHAPTER 25 | USCCB

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 9:20-27 - New International Version


Besides that many Bible passages are quoted or reinterpreted to fit a different situation or to add more emphasis on something not found in the original passage. Anyway going from almah to parthenos is not a big deal compared to some other things of the Bible, like Paul's interpretation of Law as being a burden (to drive us to God's grace) when the idiom of Deuteronomy actually says something 180 degrees opposite of that....


PS - the above OP happens all the time. Because Hebrew is a less precise language than Greek. It has less words than Greek and more range of meaning for them.


PPS- Besides this I have heard of some oral tradition behind this from the Coptic Church,

"Every woman is born a virgin but no woman can conceive while a virgin. So the fact that the Prophet Isaiah says, "the virgin shall conceive and bear a son" definitely means that this is not the usual case of a virgin who lost her virginity and conceived, but of one who conceived and bore a son while still a virgin. Tradition tells us that Simeon the Elder (one of the seventy appointed to translate the Holy Scriptures from Hebrew to Greek version know as the Septuagint) was afraid to translate that a virgin would conceive, because the king would mock him. He wanted to translate the virgin as a "young lady" but he was not at ease for this inaccurate translation and God revealed to him in a vision that he would not die before he would see Christ the Lord born of a virgin. This was fulfilled and Simeon the Elder lived about three hundred years. When the Lord Jesus Christ was born and was presented into the Temple, Simeon was there and carried the Lord Jesus Christ in his hands saying "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation" (Luke 2:29-30).



Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States - Q&A
 
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com7fy8

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About 1) > my opinion > yes, the LORD directed this to someone about what would happen at that time. Also, it was multi-tasking to mean Mary having Jesus. This is an example of what certain commentators call "telescopic prophecy" . . . with focuses on different times in history.

God's word isn't for only some one time in history; so it shouldn't be hard to see how His prophecies could be meant for more than one point in time.

And in the early scriptures we can find historical events which can be used symbolically for a New Testament meaning. One example of actual events having metaphorical New Testament meanings is in Galatians 4:21-26.
 
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PloverWing

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I don't see the NT fulfillment of OT prophecies as a matter of predictions coming true, but rather that events in the life of Christ and in the early church reminded the disciples of things that had been written about in the OT.

So, in this instance, it's not that Isaiah was predicting Jesus. As you say, Isaiah was talking about a birth happening in his lifetime. But the writer of Matthew, seeing Jesus, saw a likeness between Jesus and what happened in the time of Isaiah -- as if to say "This is just like what Isaiah wrote about."

Similarly, Jeremiah 31 isn't predicting Herod's slaughter of the innocents, but Herod's slaughter reminds Matthew's author of Jeremiah's poetry. The serpent lifted up in the wilderness isn't a prediction of Jesus, but that event from Israel's history was a useful image for Jesus to use to describe himself. And so on.
 
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com7fy8

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2) You say the word should be translated as "young woman".

I have been told by a rabbi that the word can mean young woman but also it can mean a virgin. Let me check my Hebrew source >

To me, it appears the definition means a woman who is veiled . . . meaning she is somehow kept secret until becoming married. And, except for certain exceptions, in that culture a woman getting married for the first time had better be a virgin, or . . . big mistake!!

According to my source, only in Genesis 24:43 is this Hebrew word also used; and this is in reference to Rebecca before she married Isaac. But in various other early scriptures a different word for "virgin" is used; and this other word in Hebrew seems to mean . . . virgin or bride.

In a God-honoring culture, it was understood that a young woman never married or a bride was supposed to be a virgin. Also, God could use wording which does not spell out, at first, what details of a future situation will be. This is so we can discover what He means by His word, when in due time He brings His meaning to pass. This works, even now, quite well > we receive and trust His word, then discover how He has His word do what He means :)

We certainly are not God's dictators of what He knows His words mean!
 
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ViaCrucis

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We all know this one :

Matthew 1 : 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

However, it is fraught with problems :

1) This prophecy from Isaiah 7, is giving assurance to King Ahaz, and is referring to something that will happen within his own lifetime, it is not at all messianic.

Neither is Hosea 11:1, and yet St. Matthew the Evangelist applies it to the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt. The writers of the New Testament, like other Jewish contemporaries, had no problem with the idea that Scripture could have layered meaning. Judaism has a rich history of midrash. Christians weren't being original in "messianizing" certain passages of Scripture, something that can be seen in places in Jewish midrashic literature.

2) The Hebrew word (almah) mistranslated here as "virgin" should be rendered young woman.

Not a mistranslation, but an interpretive translation, Matthew is relying on the LXX, a translation of the Jewish Scriptures into Greek made hundreds of years before Jesus, which translates almah as parthenos, "virgin".

3) Jesus is never referred to as Immanuel anywhere.

You mean other than here in Matthew 1:23, and in Christian literature throughout the last two thousand years? I can assure you, there is an abundance of Jesus being called Emmanuel.

For example, the famous Advent hymn, "Come O Come Emmanuel"

So how do Christians reconcile this?

Reconcile what?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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com7fy8

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About 3) > Jesus is referred to as Immanuel in the prophecy itself. And the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 does say His name will be called Immanuel, right? And now people are calling His name . . . Immanuel . . . right? And Matthew 1:22-23, with reference to Jesus, does say >

"So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which is translated, 'God with us.'" (Matthew 1:22-23)

So, this is calling Jesus Immanuel, by saying what His name will be called.


 
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SilverSpoon

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Sounds like you have been reading articles from atheists of non Messianic Jews.

Reconciling it is easy. Their is an article in the forward of my "Jewish Study Bible" on Inner Biblical Interpretation that gives some answers that would apply. Probably the best answer is the concept that some verses are super charged with multiple levels of meanings because they are inspired by God. The verse situation where that applies from comes from Jeremiahs prophesy of 70 years of exile versus, Daniels Revelation of 70 7s,


2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.


Jeremiah, CHAPTER 25 | USCCB

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 9:20-27 - New International Version


Besides that many Bible passages are quoted or reinterpreted to fit a different situation or to add more emphasis on something not found in the original passage. Anyway going from almah to parthenos is not a big deal compared to some other things of the Bible, like Paul's interpretation of Law as being a burden (to drive us to God's grace) when the idiom of Deuteronomy actually says something 180 degrees opposite of that....


PS - the above OP happens all the time. Because Hebrew is a less precise language than Greek. It has less words than Greek and more range of meaning for them.


PPS- Besides this I have heard of some oral tradition behind this from the Coptic Church,

"Every woman is born a virgin but no woman can conceive while a virgin. So the fact that the Prophet Isaiah says, "the virgin shall conceive and bear a son" definitely means that this is not the usual case of a virgin who lost her virginity and conceived, but of one who conceived and bore a son while still a virgin. Tradition tells us that Simeon the Elder (one of the seventy appointed to translate the Holy Scriptures from Hebrew to Greek version know as the Septuagint) was afraid to translate that a virgin would conceive, because the king would mock him. He wanted to translate the virgin as a "young lady" but he was not at ease for this inaccurate translation and God revealed to him in a vision that he would not die before he would see Christ the Lord born of a virgin. This was fulfilled and Simeon the Elder lived about three hundred years. When the Lord Jesus Christ was born and was presented into the Temple, Simeon was there and carried the Lord Jesus Christ in his hands saying "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation" (Luke 2:29-30).



Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States - Q&A

"Sounds like you have been reading articles from atheists of non Messianic Jews."

Unless the bible is such that is a mindless assumption. You didn't even read what I wrote.

"So the fact that the Prophet Isaiah says, "the virgin shall conceive and bear a son"

That's not a fact, every Jewish Bible renders the word correctly as young woman not virgin, even some Christian Bible's have taken the bold initiative. Almah = young woman, fact.
 
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topher694

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We all know this one :

Matthew 1 : 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

However, it is fraught with problems :

1) This prophecy from Isaiah 7, is giving assurance to King Ahaz, and is referring to something that will happen within his own lifetime, it is not at all messianic.

2) The Hebrew word (almah) mistranslated here as "virgin" should be rendered young woman.

3) Jesus is never referred to as Immanuel anywhere.

So how do Christians reconcile this?
By not turning it into something it isn't.
 
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SilverSpoon

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2) You say the word should be translated as "young woman".

I have been told by a rabbi that the word can mean young woman but also it can mean a virgin. Let me check my Hebrew source >

To me, it appears the definition means a woman who is veiled . . . meaning she is somehow kept secret until becoming married. And, except for certain exceptions, in that culture a woman getting married for the first time had better be a virgin, or . . . big mistake!!

According to my source, only in Genesis 24:43 is this Hebrew word also used; and this is in reference to Rebecca before she married Isaac. But in various other early scriptures a different word for "virgin" is used; and this other word in Hebrew seems to mean . . . virgin or bride.

In a God-honoring culture, it was understood that a young woman never married or a bride was supposed to be a virgin. Also, God could use wording which does not spell out, at first, what details of a future situation will be. This is so we can discover what He means by His word, when in due time He brings His meaning to pass. This works, even now, quite well > we receive and trust His word, then discover how He has His word do what He means :)

We certainly are not God's dictators of what He knows His words mean!

"I have been told by a rabbi that the word can mean young woman but also it can mean a virgin"

That is false, the word for virgin is "betulah". More importantly, Isaiah 7:14 contains no messianic prophecy at all.

"We certainly are not God's dictators of what He knows His words mean!" These words are meant to be understood by humans and are in human languages, otherwise the whole bible would be unintelligible.
 
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SilverSpoon

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About 3) > Jesus is referred to as Immanuel in the prophecy itself. And the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 does say His name will be called Immanuel, right? And now people are calling His name . . . Immanuel . . . right? And Matthew 1:22-23, with reference to Jesus, does say >

"So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which is translated, 'God with us.'" (Matthew 1:22-23)

So, this is calling Jesus Immanuel, by saying what His name will be called.

And no where else besides Matthew's claimed prophecy. Nowhere in in his birth narratives is named or called Immanuel as the "prophecy" describes. Isaiah 7:14 refers to someone who will be born to save King Ahaz's kingdom, that rules out Jesus entirely.
 
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SilverSpoon

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Neither is Hosea 11:1, and yet St. Matthew the Evangelist applies it to the flight of the Holy Family to Egypt. The writers of the New Testament, like other Jewish contemporaries, had no problem with the idea that Scripture could have layered meaning. Judaism has a rich history of midrash. Christians weren't being original in "messianizing" certain passages of Scripture, something that can be seen in places in Jewish midrashic literature.



Not a mistranslation, but an interpretive translation, Matthew is relying on the LXX, a translation of the Jewish Scriptures into Greek made hundreds of years before Jesus, which translates almah as parthenos, "virgin".



You mean other than here in Matthew 1:23, and in Christian literature throughout the last two thousand years? I can assure you, there is an abundance of Jesus being called Emmanuel.

For example, the famous Advent hymn, "Come O Come Emmanuel"



Reconcile what?

-CryptoLutheran

The LXX that we have today is not an original, nor did the original contain the books of the prophets. The original LXX was only the Torah, and the Masoretic matches the Dead Sea Scrolls much better than it does the LXX. The LXX also translates the Hebrew "narah" as Parthenos in Genesis 34:2‑3.

Most importantly, Isaiah 7:14 is about someone who will save King Ahaz's kingdom, and would have to be born many centuries before Christ.

"I can assure you, there is an abundance of Jesus being called Emmanuel"

But never in the birth narratives of Jesus in the gospels where you would expect it. This is also embarrassing and shows an inability to comprehend the context of this verse, it's not even messianic.
 
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SilverSpoon

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I don't see the NT fulfillment of OT prophecies as a matter of predictions coming true, but rather that events in the life of Christ and in the early church reminded the disciples of things that had been written about in the OT.

So, in this instance, it's not that Isaiah was predicting Jesus. As you say, Isaiah was talking about a birth happening in his lifetime. But the writer of Matthew, seeing Jesus, saw a likeness between Jesus and what happened in the time of Isaiah -- as if to say "This is just like what Isaiah wrote about."

Similarly, Jeremiah 31 isn't predicting Herod's slaughter of the innocents, but Herod's slaughter reminds Matthew's author of Jeremiah's poetry. The serpent lifted up in the wilderness isn't a prediction of Jesus, but that event from Israel's history was a useful image for Jesus to use to describe himself. And so on.

Sorry but this apologetic does not work, for the author of Matthew clearly claims it as a fulfillment of prophecy : "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet". Also the correct word isn't even "virgin", but "young woman".
 
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SilverSpoon

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Nah, you managed that all by yourself.

So the Hebrew word Almah isn't young woman, Jewish scholars wouldn't agree with you on that, nor would any publicly available Hebrew dictionary. Also if you bother to read Isaiah 7 it is about someone who will save King Ahaz's kingdom, and would have to be born many centuries before Christ.
 
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