Is Vinland Saga Anti Christian? (Canute, Ragnar, Etc)

[muichimotsu]

Just a discussion topic of sorts for how the anime presents historical Christianity in Europe in the 11th century, as well s interesting ideas brought forth in the latter half by the priest (Willabald? It's only been mentioned once, he's kind of forgettable apart from his drunkenness and one speech) about the nature of true agape love being death, because it doesn't discriminate.

But there's also Canute, raised as a Christian by his retainer to be kind-hearted, but the cruelty of war pushes him to reject the more peaceful ways he was brought up with and seeks to bring utopia on Earth, arguably reflecting some trends in New Testament writing, at least in that the earth itself woudl become paradise, even if there's the points of God's kingdom not being of this earth, maybe interpreted more metaphorically rather than literally as something immaterial (that's a whole discussion that's ongoing in Christianity probably)

And there's also the contrasts drawn by the Viking characters who still follow ancient Odin-centered religion between Thor and Jesus as well as their ideas of what Christians are like based on their encounters with missionaries and converts (which I think would technically include Leif, a character who's mostly forgotten after the first few episodes until recently?)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Too many things bother me about Vinland Saga in reflection. I quite liked it on the first reading and have been getting the volumes as they release on Amazon but I feel the story overall is implicated by the author's biases lack of knowledge.

The author doesn't know enough about medieval Christian theology to present the christianization of the Scandinavians in a compelling way. We don't have a good representative of the future Christianization and how this changed the Scandinavians.

I enjoyed Vinland saga for a bit but there were these consistent problems I saw of the author inserting a modern ideology into characters that has no right being there. Canute at one point rejects God and is determined to build his own Kingdom of Heaven on earth, because of what exactly? The Brutality and barbarity of the age? This is a modern nihilistic outlook, not a medieval one from a viking or Christian perspective. To the ancients this was normal, this was simply the world they knew. To have Canute of all people be such a character when he helped along the process of Christianization. He even went to Rome to discuss with the Pope matters of Church appointments.

The main character, I've always thought, should have openly converted to Christianity based on his Father and his own connection to Leif Eiriksson. The story itself takes place in the midst of the Christianization of Iceland and yet we barely see how it impacts the story and historically the main character's son would become a Bishop. At the end of his journey of bloodshed when he renounces his anger and desire for revenge it would have made thematic and historic sense for him to have abandoned the old violent ways of the vikings to an explicitly Christian way of living as that was the only ideology that even offered personal pacifism as an option.

Few other characters are wrong as well. I've forgotten his name but there's that guy who fights for the English in the manga because he wants to fight the Vikings to challenge himself. This happened historically but not because he wanted to fight for the sake of fighting but because his own Viking men killed a Bishop he was trying to protect, so he defected to the English.

Maybe the author can change things but we know how it ends. The Vinland colony fails and it'll likely end on a note of despiar/meaninglessness or Thorfinn decides to stay in America with the Native Americans or something silly like that.

 

[muichimotsu]

Too many things bother me about Vinland Saga in reflection. I quite liked it on the first reading and have been getting the volumes as they release on Amazon but I feel the story overall is implicated by the author's biases lack of knowledge.

The author doesn't know enough about medieval Christian theology to present the christianization of the Scandinavians in a compelling way. We don't have a good representative of the future Christianization and how this changed the Scandinavians.

I enjoyed Vinland saga for a bit but there were these consistent problems I saw of the author inserting a modern ideology into characters that has no right being there. Canute at one point rejects God and is determined to build his own Kingdom of Heaven on earth, because of what exactly? The Brutality and barbarity of the age? This is a modern nihilistic outlook, not a medieval one from a viking or Christian perspective. To the ancients this was normal, this was simply the world they knew. To have Canute of all people be such a character when he helped along the process of Christianization. He even went to Rome to discuss with the Pope matters of Church appointments.

The main character, I've always thought, should have openly converted to Christianity based on his Father and his own connection to Leif Eiriksson. The story itself takes place in the midst of the Christianization of Iceland and yet we barely see how it impacts the story and historically the main character's son would become a Bishop. At the end of his journey of bloodshed when he renounces his anger and desire for revenge it would have made thematic and historic sense for him to have abandoned the old violent ways of the vikings to an explicitly Christian way of living as that was the only ideology that even offered personal pacifism as an option.

Few other characters are wrong as well. I've forgotten his name but there's that guy who fights for the English in the manga because he wants to fight the Vikings to challenge himself. This happened historically but not because he wanted to fight for the sake of fighting but because his own Viking men killed a Bishop he was trying to protect, so he defected to the English.

Maybe the author can change things but we know how it ends. The Vinland colony fails and it'll likely end on a note of despiar/meaninglessness or Thorfinn decides to stay in America with the Native Americans or something silly like that.

It's meant to be historical fiction, tweaking things for a particular story you're telling is just how it goes, the accuracy is not relevant unless you're focusing on that over the story as it's being told. To suggest that Christianity was remotely the only pacifistic idea might be accurate in some respect, but it hardly means Thors had to be Christian to advocate for it as a character that had the experiences he did

The author likely wanted to go in a different direction for character development as it concerned war and how it changes a person (Thorfinn, Thors, Thorkell, etc) rather than the political and religious implications except in a way that at least could make some sense, even if historically, it may be fairly removed (like Maria the Virgin Witch also getting into theological ideas that probably weren't present in the 14th-15th century, with Bernard, apparently anime-original, but still pertinent in the story the anime told versus the manga, which I still haven't fully read).

In terms of the Christian aspects, that'd be something a different author could address, but you get the idea that it's more a sense of contrast rather than a major focus overall for the character development and story progression

Us knowing how it ends in terms of the source material doesn't mean the author isn't going to take it in a different direction even if he also keeps the events in line with history in not creating contradictions, etc. The characters can grow without it having to be how they did in historical records, in the same vein as Thorkell being depicted as more a brute and not having much loyalty beyond someone with strong convictions.

Thorfinn's sister has kids with a guy that I don't recall her having any meaningful interactions with, and your observation of Leif Erikson and how he converts to Christianity does throw me off a bit, but we're talking about the Japanese that aren't necessarily religious in the first place and also don't tend to grasp the Christian viewpoint anyway because of how removed it is from Japan's more immanent notions of divinity, etc.

 

[ILiekCatz]

The main character, I've always thought, should have openly converted to Christianity based on his Father and his own connection to Leif Eiriksson. The story itself takes place in the midst of the Christianization of Iceland and yet we barely see how it impacts the story and historically the main character's son would become a Bishop. At the end of his journey of bloodshed when he renounces his anger and desire for revenge it would have made thematic and historic sense for him to have abandoned the old violent ways of the vikings to an explicitly Christian way of living as that was the only ideology that even offered personal pacifism as an option.

Thorfinn always disliked violence, and even in his darkest days was repeatedly show to disdain the pleasure his fellow vikings derived from violence. He always saw violence as just a tool to achieve certain goals. So for him to reject "his viking ways" would be a bit redundant, because he never really considered himself a Viking, he was in the midst of it all because he wanted to kill Askeladd in a 1v1 duel.

 

[muichimotsu]

Again, historical fiction, kind of missing the point if you're insisting on historical purism and such in the story that is meant to give a new take on it and not necessarily reflect historical realities a scholar can point out.

 

[Hiep]

Vinland Saga just came out. I haven't watched it or read the manga, but I'm planning to.