Views on denominations who pray to those other than God.

[GoingByzantine]

What load of incredible arrogance!

"The first is, who is the Jesus with whom we commune? If you believe that Jesus was a simply good man and wise teacher whose purpose was to make the world a more just and peaceful place for people of all faiths, while I believe that He is God in the flesh who is the only way to the Father, then you and I believe in different two different persons named Jesus."

"practising a ‘me and Jesus’ faith, without answering to anyone?"

You realize that this is the Non-Denominational forum, don't you?? By definition, the people here "practise (sic) a 'me and Jesus' faith."

Thank you for proving what is wrong with the closed tables of the Catholics.

It is their view though, their perspective. I can't take communion with them either, so when I was younger I looked up this article and found out why, and to me it makes sense.

I know this is a non-denominational forum, I am sorry if I distracted from the conversation at hand, I just want us all to put ourselves in the others shoes.

I think that bad blood can be overcome when we learn to ponder others beliefs, and try to find the good in them. I for instance think that Non-Denominational churches do a wonderful job of bringing young people lured away by secularism back into the faith of Jesus Christ.

-----------------------------------

So as not to distract anymore, we can get back to the topic at hand, intercessions.

 

[GoingByzantine]

So I am curious about this apparition of Mary, Superhero Sam? Do you think it was a trick or do you think it was actually her?

 

[Sammy-San]

Orthodox Catholic? They are hardly Protestant.

What about Russian Orthodox? They are technically Protestant, since Protestant is an umbrella term to refer to non-Catholics, and they arent Catholic.

 

[Job8]

Even the Pope has backed way off from the old position that Protestants are innately "heretics", and many Protestant churches have approached the old Apostolic Churches in fellowship.

While this has taken a turn that is off the subject, just a few questions:

Has the pope publicly declared the Council of Trent rulings null and void?
Has the pope publicly declared the primacy of the papacy as null and void?
Has the pope publicly declared the veneration of Mary as unscriptural?

If Trent is still in place Protestants are still "heretics" no matter what is said by the pope, since the rulings of these councils are considered to have the same authority as Scripture. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[HOLYTHUNDER3]

They claim they don't pray to Mary.. they plead for her to pray for them. That's what they claim but it does sound like a prayer to me. Read the Catholic statement of faith.

 

[dragongunner]

To answer the OP with my opinion, it is mostly ignorance, and laziness to search and believe the scriptures, a immaturity to only believe what has been taught and a unwillingness to learn for themselves truth. The scriptures are clear….

1 Timothy 2:5 King James Version (KJV)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

ONE MEDIATOR….its not Mary, its not angels, its no saint.


My former pastor met and knew a man who had been a Catholic priest. One day a little girl gave him a small bible, the priest, Peter Paul took the bible and later in his study decided to look at it. When he opened it he read….."For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…." Peter Paul said "Lord!!! Then what am I doing?" The Lord answered Peter Paul and gave him instructions, which Peter Paul followed, it led him to my pastors former pastor who was evangelizing. The Holy Ghost came upon Peter Paul in a remarkable way, he soon left being Cathoilic. Years later I met a woman in CA and she told me they had a man visit their church, who use to be a Catholic priest called Peter Paul and he told the same story my pastor had told me. It seemed all of a sudden a small world.

 

[BryanW92]

What about Russian Orthodox? They are technically Protestant, since Protestant is an umbrella term to refer to non-Catholics, and they arent Catholic.

The Orthodox Churches are Catholic. They just aren't Roman Catholic. In fact, they would tell you that they are the true Catholics. Protestants are the churches created by those who left the Roman Catholic Church after the Reformation in the 16th century. The Russian Orthodox Church split from the larger Orthodox Catholic Church and are not a product of the Reformation.

 

[BryanW92]

It is their view though, their perspective. I can't take communion with them either, so when I was younger I looked up this article and found out why, and to me it makes sense.

I know this is a non-denominational forum, I am sorry if I distracted from the conversation at hand, I just want us all to put ourselves in the others shoes.

So what do they tell you over in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic forums when you insist that they put themselves in our Protestant shoes?

 

[Celticflower]

Well, we still aren't good enough to take communion with them, so they must not consider us to be fully Christian.

Just like some factions of the Protestants who have closed communion and the non-denom I attend, but cannot join because they do not accept my baptism. Divisions exist throughout the Church - you just tend not to notice until you run face first into one.

 

[kristina411]

I dont think its any of my business but...
My question is... If we don't go to heaven until the end times, how are these saints sending any messages at all, if they were? Some things just make no sense to me. But idk if they are right or wrong, and dont think its my place to decide. Just confused lol

 

[pdudgeon]

Judgment implies a punishment. We cannot punish the Roman Catholics. This is just a discussion.

Do you believe that we could talk Roman Catholics into abandoning their "veneration" of Mary? Do you believe that they could convince us that they aren't praying to Mary? (some of us have studied this issue in depth already).

What is the point of entering into a discussion at all when the only acceptable outcome will be "we'll have to agree to disagree"?

They have their beliefs and we have ours. Since we are Protestant, we need to talk among ourselves about what we are protesting against.

wrong again. Judgement does NOT always lead to punishment.
True judgement weighs all the information available before coming to a conclusion.
Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty"?

and yes, i do believe that with all the information available through that same inter-faith discussion, that many hearts could be changed and minds enlightened.

I have no doubt that some of you have studied the issues in depth already. But if you have ended with only the same opinion that you began and nothing more than that, then of what purpose was the study?

Were you looking for the truth of the matter or were you looking to confirm what you already knew?

 

[pdudgeon]

I dont think its any of my business but...
My question is... If we don't go to heaven until the end times, how are these saints sending any messages at all, if they were? Some things just make no sense to me. But idk if they are right or wrong, and dont think its my place to decide. Just confused lol

one thing that might help here is to look at Matt. 17:1-3 where Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Both prophets died before any of the disciples were born, yet the prophets were recognized by the disciples and by Jesus Himself.

I don't think that there is any better confirmation than the above passage that it is possible for saints to appear before and speak to humans.

 

[pdudgeon]

So what do they tell you over in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic forums when you insist that they put themselves in our Protestant shoes?

they are kind. and patient. and forbearing.

I doubt that there is a question or a viewpoint that they haven't heard before, and many 'over there' can remember a time when they asked similar questions on their own faith journeys.

the words 'unmerited grace' come to mind....

 

[Sammy-San]

The Orthodox Churches are Catholic. They just aren't Roman Catholic. In fact, they would tell you that they are the true Catholics. Protestants are the churches created by those who left the Roman Catholic Church after the Reformation in the 16th century. The Russian Orthodox Church split from the larger Orthodox Catholic Church and are not a product of the Reformation.

What about Greek Orthodox? As far as I know, they have different traditions from Catholics and Russian churches. For example, they dont have statues of saints.

 

[dragongunner]

one thing that might help here is to look at Matt. 17:1-3 where Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Both prophets died before any of the disciples were born, yet the prophets were recognized by the disciples and by Jesus Himself.

I don't think that there is any better confirmation than the above passage that it is possible for saints to appear before and speak to humans.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In other words to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.


Moses and Elijah with Jesus did not speak to any of the disciples, they were simply with the Lord. There is no Bible for any of the Saints being a mediator between God and men. The only one mediator is Christ, not Mary, not a saint, not a angel……do you agree?

 

[GoingByzantine]

What about Greek Orthodox? As far as I know, they have different traditions from Catholics and Russian churches. For example, they dont have statues of saints.

Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox are all part of the greater Eastern Orthodox Church. They vary very little, most of the differences are in chanting styles and art forms. The theology is virtually the same across the board.

 

[BryanW92]

What about Greek Orthodox? As far as I know, they have different traditions from Catholics and Russian churches. For example, they dont have statues of saints.

Protestant does not mean "Not Roman Catholic". Copts, Orthodox, and any other ancient church cannot be Protrstant because they split from Rome (or had Rome split from them) long before the Reformation. Protestant churches are products of the Reformation.

 

[pdudgeon]

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In other words to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

have you never heard of bi-location?

Moses and Elijah with Jesus did not speak to any of the disciples, they were simply with the Lord. There is no Bible for any of the Saints being a mediator between God and men. The only one mediator is Christ, not Mary, not a saint, not a angel……do you agree?

there are too many instances in both the OT and the NT to quote all of them, but there is one that i can refer you to. John 2:1-5 where Mary is clearly acting as a mediator between men and Christ.

First she brings the embarrassing problem of the wine running out to Christ's attention, and secondly she shows her own faith in directing the servants to do whatever her son tells them.

to all appearances Mary was only a guest at the wedding, and a female at that. In that social situation she had no more standing or authority than any of the other guests.
And yet her concern for both the bride and groom as well as that of the other guests led her to act contrary to the accepted social norms that day. It was her faith in the promises of God given to her that led her once again to act in her faith.
So first she turned to her son, letting Him know of a problem.
And then she turned to the servants, asking them to receive Jesus' instructions as one having the authority to give that order, and desiring them to follow His orders.

wouldn't that be an example of Mary mediating between God and men?

would you prefer an older example? What about Abraham and Lot? I'll refer you to Genesis 18:22-33, where Abraham clearly mediated between God and the citizens of Sodom.

 

[dragongunner]

have you never heard of bi-location?




there are too many instances in both the OT and the NT to quote all of them, but there is one that i can refer you to. John 2:1-5 where Mary is clearly acting as a mediator between men and Christ.

First she brings the embarrassing problem of the wine running out to Christ's attention, and secondly she shows her own faith in directing the servants to do whatever her son tells them.

to all appearances Mary was only a guest at the wedding, and a female at that. In that social situation she had no more standing or authority than any of the other guests.
And yet her concern for both the bride and groom as well as that of the other guests led her to act contrary to the accepted social norms that day. It was her faith in the promises of God given to her that led her once again to act in her faith.
So first she turned to her son, letting Him know of a problem.
And then she turned to the servants, asking them to receive Jesus' instructions as one having the authority to give that order, and desiring them to follow His orders.

wouldn't that be an example of Mary mediating between God and men?

would you prefer an older example? What about Abraham and Lot? I'll refer you to Genesis 18:22-33, where Abraham clearly mediated between God and the citizens of Sodom.

The bible does not call Mary a mediator….you did, so lets clear that up.

The bible say this,

1 Timothy 2:5 King James Version (KJV)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

ONE MEDIATOR….its not Mary, its not angels, its no saint.

I'll take your answer as a no.

 

[kristina411]

one thing that might help here is to look at Matt. 17:1-3 where Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Both prophets died before any of the disciples were born, yet the prophets were recognized by the disciples and by Jesus Himself.

I don't think that there is any better confirmation than the above passage that it is possible for saints to appear before and speak to humans.

Yes... I forgot about this... Hmm... I wonder why that is.