view of hell and gratitude to Christ

[blacksheep78]

I'm not Orthodox but I am very interested in the Orthodox theology. I have noticed that a lot of Orthodox, as opposed to Protestants, do not speak in terms of "deserving hell" or Penal Substitionary Atonement. I have never been able to understand how anyone deserves hell for being a sinner, since there is no one who has ever lived (except Christ of course) who has not sinned. This tells me that there is no way we could NOT sin. Ergo, we can't help but sin.

Most Protestants are very grateful for Christ "taking their place" and paying the "penalty they owed". Their love for Christ is primarily based on this. Since I cannot understand how I deserve hell, it is hard for me to feel the way they do.

My question is, how does an Orthodox (if they don't believe we deserve to be punished) feel gratitude to Christ for reconciling us to God - if the separation from God was never our fault to begin with?

 

[ArmyMatt]

the separation was our fault, since we sin and that leads to death. we feel gratitude to Christ, since He assumed our nature and healed it, so when He died on the Cross He destroyed death by death.

so because of Christ, we have an even deeper relationship with God than Adam did before the Fall

 

[blacksheep78]

If it's our fault, then in my mind it must be some kind of unintentional fault, like if I hit a pedestrian with my car because the sun was in my eyes. We can choose to not sin, and we can choose to turn to God. But we can't choose to NEVER sin. It's impossible.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not Orthodox but I am very interested in the Orthodox theology. I have noticed that a lot of Orthodox, as opposed to Protestants, do not speak in terms of "deserving hell" or Penal Substitionary Atonement. I have never been able to understand how anyone deserves hell for being a sinner, since there is no one who has ever lived (except Christ of course) who has not sinned. This tells me that there is no way we could NOT sin. Ergo, we can't help but sin.

Most Protestants are very grateful for Christ "taking their place" and paying the "penalty they owed". Their love for Christ is primarily based on this. Since I cannot understand how I deserve hell, it is hard for me to feel the way they do.

My question is, how does an Orthodox (if they don't believe we deserve to be punished) feel gratitude to Christ for reconciling us to God - if the separation from God was never our fault to begin with?

I have an Orthodox prayer book, the little red one. The tone is not completely different from what you'ld find in older Protestant prayer books or hymnals.

I think Orthodox and Protestants would agree humanity's plight is tragic, and that God saves anybody is due to his desire to do so and not because God owes us something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

sin is more comprehensive than simply what we do wrong. it means in Greek to miss the mark. the simple fact that we die, which misses the mark of the God Who is life, shows we are still bound by sin and need a savior. babies who die in the womb, even though personally sinless, still need Christ

 

[peregrinus2017]

Someone please correct me if I am speaking wrongly, but I think that Orthodox view death and even hell as a natural result of sin, rather than God needing to punish us for our sin. Protestants and Orthodox generally seem to have a very different concept of hell. You are quite right that in ourselves it is impossible to never sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Someone please correct me if I am speaking wrongly, but I think that Orthodox view death and even hell as a natural result of sin, rather than God needing to punish us for our sin. Protestants and Orthodox generally seem to have a very different concept of hell. You are quite right that in ourselves it is impossible to never sin.

yes, when you sin, you die because death is the byproduct of sin. as far as differences go, I think that depends on the Protestant. a Methodist, Anglican, or Lutheran has a much more correct view than the Jack Chicks of the world.

 

[All4Christ]

@blacksheep78 Are you familiar with the Orthodox understanding of Heaven and Hell?

 

[peregrinus2017]

yes, when you sin, you die because death is the byproduct of sin. as far as differences go, I think that depends on the Protestant. a Methodist, Anglican, or Lutheran has a much more correct view than the Jack Chicks of the world.

Thank you Father Matt. Until I started looking into church history, most of my experience was with evangelical, charismatic and non denominations. It is improper of me to blanket that experience onto other groups.

To the OP it would be helpful to me to know what you believe about hell and how you feel you relate to God.
For me, the penal substitutionary theory of atonement was number three on my list of things that led me to Orthodoxy.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing about evangelicals is they don't often have a very good sense of sin anymore. They act like its a few things people do that are serious (usually sexual or sometimes trivial things), and if you don't do them, then you are OK with the group, and by extension, God. Sometimes they just think people come to faith through something exciting or entertaining, and the Word for sinners is either masked or left out altogether. So you can end up missing the sense of penitence or repentance that most traditional Christians focus on as important for how we "do church" and live out our faith.

 

[Phronema]

If it's our fault, then in my mind it must be some kind of unintentional fault

I think this references Original Sin which we've inherited from Adam and Eve.

 

[blacksheep78]

One thing about evangelicals is they don't often have a very good sense of sin anymore. They act like its a few things people do that are serious (usually sexual or sometimes trivial things), and if you don't do them, then you are OK with the group, and by extension, God. Sometimes they just think people come to faith through something exciting or entertaining, and the Word for sinners is either masked or left out altogether. So you can end up missing the sense of penitence or repentance that most traditional Christians focus on as important for how we "do church" and live out our faith.

I certainly agree with you on this. And this is why I am so bothered by my inability to grasp my own culpability. I do understand that sin encompasses so much more than the "big" outward sins. And I do understand that it is very serious. It's just the "fault" and "deserving" parts that I struggle with.

 

[blacksheep78]

@blacksheep78 Are you familiar with the Orthodox understanding of Heaven and Hell?

Yes, I am. I guess it's Penal Substitution that I have more trouble understanding. Because it involves punishment rather than natural consequences.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, I am. I guess it's Penal Substitution that I have more trouble understanding. Because it involves punishment rather than natural consequences.

I think its more of a question of emphasis in the end, than substantial disagreement.

 

[blacksheep78]

yes, when you sin, you die because death is the byproduct of sin. as far as differences go, I think that depends on the Protestant. a Methodist, Anglican, or Lutheran has a much more correct view than the Jack Chicks of the world.

Can you elaborate on how the Methodists, Anglicans, and Lutherans are more accurate than the "evangelicals"?

 

[blacksheep78]

To the OP it would be helpful to me to know what you believe about hell and how you feel you relate to God.
For me, the penal substitutionary theory of atonement was number three on my list of things that led me to Orthodoxy.

I like Orthodoxy because it emphasizes the love of God as being His number one essence. Everything He does is done in love. I call God "Father" except when I'm really struggling with assurance and I don't know if I'm "allowed" to call Him that I've been researching a lot of things to help me see God as truly loving and truly good. Because I've always kind of seen Him as arbitrary, unreasonable, and caring more about His glory than about His creatures.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you elaborate on how the Methodists, Anglicans, and Lutherans are more accurate than the "evangelicals"?

typically, although not always, there is more of a notion of death being destroyed rather than the Father beating up His Son

 

[peregrinus2017]

Penal substitution seems to be understood differently by different people these days, I found it beneficial to look back to what this idea originally meant and where it came from. My biggest beef with this is the idea that God needed to punish someone in order to forgive us. This makes God the Father into an angry and wrathful God bent on a need for punishment, and it places Christ in the role of trying to protect us from the father. How can anyone love a father that they perceive as determined to punish everything they ever do wrong? And to say that the Holy, perfect and utterly complete uncreated God needs anything is just wrong.

"Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;"

Christ did what he did because we needed Him. What he did was for the love The Holy Trinity has for His creation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Penal substitution seems to be understood differently by different people these days, I found it beneficial to look back to what this idea originally meant and where it came from. My biggest beef with this is the idea that God needed to punish someone in order to forgive us. This makes God the Father into an angry and wrathful God bent on a need for punishment, and it places Christ in the role of trying to protect us from the father. How can anyone love a father that they perceive as determined to punish everything they ever do wrong? And to say that the Holy, perfect and utterly complete uncreated God needs anything is just wrong.

"Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;"

Christ did what he did because we needed Him. What he did was for the love The Holy Trinity has for His creation.

it also means that God went from being in total and infinitely perfect communion with His Son, to turning His back on Him and abandoning Him, to reestablishing that original communion. which means God changes which is impossible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I certainly agree with you on this. And this is why I am so bothered by my inability to grasp my own culpability. I do understand that sin encompasses so much more than the "big" outward sins. And I do understand that it is very serious. It's just the "fault" and "deserving" parts that I struggle with.

It becomes easier when sin is understood more in terms of a sickness than a legal transgression. You know the word for "save" as in salvation and the word for "heal" from some sickness or impairment in the New Testament - is the same word? It's just translated variously. (Sozo- sorry no Greek on my phone)

Anyway ... it might be easier to see if you think about sin as missing the mark, and the mark is to be like Christ. Would Christ get offended and have a sudden spurt of anger (even if not expressed) because someone cut in front of him in line or treated him unfairly? Yet we often do. It's our pride, usually.

Or perhaps think about sin as ... does the word, action, thought, or attitude draw us closer to God, or put more distance between us? Many things might not seem legally "wrong" like the breaking of a law, but they might subtly cause more distance between us and God.

That's part of why culpability is not the healthiest thing to emphasize. If we DID see our sins - all of them - and viewed them only as broken laws, we would be reduced to hopeless worms in our own eyes, and despair of any help. But ... yes, we commit all those sins. Yes, we are guilty and should repent. But more, they take us further from God and are actually jabs into our person that injure us further - we grow sick with sin, and if we continue in it, our person/nature becomes corrupt, perverted, loving darkness. If we insist on remaining in such a state, we would not be prepared to encounter the holiness and love that is God, in His direct presence. It would be torment for us. Yet God in His Great and unending mercy wants nothing more than to bind up those wounds we inflict upon ourselves, heal us from our sickness and transgressions, make us whole and raise us up in likeness of His Son, and restore to us perfect fellowship, so that we can become partakers with Him and enjoy Him forever. That is why we can love God.