Very Recently Left Catholicism And Need Advice For Dealing With The Fallout From Catholics

Light of the East

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I am sorry you received so much blowback. I suppose its better than leaving and no one even knowing or caring that you are gone. The later was my experience. I pray that you find a church home.

One thing you wrote I would object is the phrase "history is written by the victors" simply is not true. And in the context of your post I am living proof of that the statement is not true. It is often asserted that the Early church fathers (ECF) taught what Rome teaches today. However when I began to read the ECF I discovered that simply was not the case. What I read was something quite different that what was presented to me from a Roman perspective. Reading the ECF did not drive me towards Rome rather it drove me away. The fact that we still have these writings proves the point that victors no matter who decisive the victory do not possess the kind of control to shape later reasoned scholarship that is the discipline of History. I think what you mean is more of the cultural narrative around historical events and there we would agree. I hold an undergraduate degree in History so this subject is near and dear to my heart.

Again prayers for your journey.

Interesting comment. I wonder why you didn't choose to become Orthodox, since the Lutheran church has points in which they do not agree with the Early Fathers?
 
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Light of the East

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Thank you for proving my point that history is written by the victors. It doesn't mean that it is true however.



There is a victorious church for sure. However, I know that it is futile to even talk about it as most won't see it in that way.

I have made my choice, I have left the Catholic church and that fact will not change! I will more than likely become Episcopalian and that is my journey to undertake.

I am not trying to be contentious when asking this, but does it give you pause that the Episcopal church supports numerous ideas which are in stark contradiction to the Bible, such as the acceptance of homosexual behavior, ordaining women, etc?

I am not a Bible only person. Holy Tradition is important in the Orthodox faith to understand what has always been taught from the beginning, especially in the difficult passages. But there are some things that are so clearly written that one wonders how a person can ignore them and still claim to be a faithful follower of Christ?

Again, not judging you, just wondering if you have consider this.
 
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Isilwen

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I am not trying to be contentious when asking this, but does it give you pause that the Episcopal church supports numerous ideas which are in stark contradiction to the Bible, such as the acceptance of homosexual behavior, ordaining women, etc?

I am not a Bible only person. Holy Tradition is important in the Orthodox faith to understand what has always been taught from the beginning, especially in the difficult passages. But there are some things that are so clearly written that one wonders how a person can ignore them and still claim to be a faithful follower of Christ?

Again, not judging you, just wondering if you have consider this.

I have and I will not debate it.

As I said, the Episcopal church ticks off most of my points of agreement. A pro and con list if you will.
 
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Light of the East

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I am curious, though. What Scripture verses or other proofs (evidences) makes you think that the sacraments play a part in the salvation process? Granted, I am all for Sanctification being a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ), but that would be obedience to the Moral commands we see in the New Testament (that are based on love and not ceremonies or rituals).

Acts 2:38 Baptism washes away sin
Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27 You are baptized into Christ
John 6:54 The Eucharist confers eternal life.

But here's a bigger question for you. If what you believe is true, why didn't the earliest pastors in the Church teach this? This is the question I had to ask myself when I left my Presbyterian mental ghetto and began to actually read some history of the Christian faith.

You see, you can claim "Bible alone" all you wish, but the majority of Protestants here in CF will agree with you about that, yet we have literally hundreds of different beliefs, all claiming the "Bible alone" as their source. Some are quite verbose and eloquent in defending what they believe. So how do you tell who is right?

You go back to the beginning and listen to the men who were taught by the Apostles. If they taught that the Eucharist is the very Flesh and Blood of our Lord, where do you think they got that? It had to be from the Apostles.

Finally, in regards to salvation, salvation is not a once-and-done deal. It is a process of being made into the likeness of Christ. Jesus compared it to healing, saying that "the righteous do not need a physician, but the sick do." Eastern theology has always seen salvation as a process of healing, and that is one reason they called the Eucharist "the medicine of eternal life." Healing does not take place overnight. Sometimes it can be a long and drawn out process, and within that, you must take your medicine daily and do what the doctor says to do.
 
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Light of the East

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I have and I will not debate it.

As I said, the Episcopal church ticks off most of my points of agreement. A pro and con list if you will.

Okay. I am not up for debate nor being contentious. I have tried to learn over the years that contention in forums accomplishes nothing but sin on my part and hurt feelings in general.
 
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dzheremi

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Hi Isilwen. Welcome to CF. I hope you don't mind me chiming in, because I've been in your position, though I obviously made a different choice than the one you are considering in terms of church.

Anyway, regarding any antagonism...yeah, they'll do that. :( I wish I had a better answer, but it seems to be part of human nature, in that if you are convinced that you are in the right place (as the people who are coming down on your for your decision must either think they are or are trying to project and convince themselves that they are; there's no way to know) then it seems unthinkable that other people may have looked at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion than you did. If it's right because it is what is true (i.e., not because they/you were born into it, or for any other reason), then obviously everything that isn't it is at least somewhat false, or at least wrong. This is a position you'll find among Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. -- basically every traditional Church, though not all of them express it in the same exact way.

So to withstand it (and that's all you can really do; you can't change your detractors' minds for them), it is necessary to be very sure of your decision. I wouldn't rush into anything, for that very reason. I myself took about three years (2009-2012) to pray, study, and really work out what I should do and where I should be after I finally accepted that I couldn't be in the RC communion anymore. Would I go back to the Presbyterian Church I had been baptized in as an infant, or would I go somewhere else, and if so where, etc. These are hard questions. My most honest advice would be just to go and see. Checklists are fine, but especially since you're going to try to stick to some form of liturgical Christianity, you know that you won't be worshiping together with your checklist, but with other human beings. ;) Find your local Episcopalian or whatever kind of parish and check them out.

I must disagree with your contention that history is written by the victors, though. There are histories written by every people and every church, and the RCC's is just their take on things; if it seems like it dominates everything that's because you're probably only seeing their side or the side of those that are within their orbit (since Protestantism didn't start in the Christian East or in response to anything on there, but within the Western/Roman Church itself). And as far as 'victors' or winners and losers are concerned, I think I can say without besmirching its holy name that my Church definitively lost at the Council of Chalcedon, in the sense that we did not successfully bring the majority present to reject the Tome of Leo, and have remained a distinct minority in the Christian world ever since due to our steadfastness in refusing to compromise the faith as we have received it. Yet we have had at least since the tenth century in my own particular Church (earlier in the others of the communion, like the Syriac Orthodox) many histories written by illustrious bishops like HG Bishop Severus El Ashmunein (10th century), HG Bishop Youanis (modern; d. 1987), priests like Ibn Kabar of the Hanging Church/Al Moallaqa (14th century), and laypeople like Aziz S. Atiya, Iris Habib El Masri, or Maged S.A. Mikhail. (All modern)

They're still on my bookshelf, and some of them are even published by major publishers (Atiya's History of Eastern Christianity was published by the University of Notre Dame Press, and has had several reprintings since its original publication in the 1960s). The fact that they represent a minority or 'losing' viewpoint is immaterial, unless the default is to expect absolutely everything to align with the Western/Greco-Roman/imperial/Chalcedonian view just because (it is so correct). :rolleyes: And I'm sure there are many Protestant-authored histories with which the RCC and its faithful would dispute, but you can still get Foxe's Book of Martyrs for under $10 (or free, if you sign for a free trial of Audible) at Amazon.com, so y'know...don't take it as a given that the RC either does or should dominate the Christian world just because they've written a lot of histories. So has everyone else, it's just sometimes a bit more difficult to find them.
 
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Athanasius377

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Interesting comment. I wonder why you didn't choose to become Orthodox, since the Lutheran church has points in which they do not agree with the Early Fathers?
Good question. I attended an Orthodox (OCA) parish for about a year while I was in college. A good friend of mine was Russian Orthodox and that's how I was introduced to Orthodoxy. My reason for not staying? I am not Russian, Syrian, Greek etc. I know what you are going to say in that Orthodoxy is not or at least should not be ethnic. But my friend ,in the parish and on the ground snooty ethnicity was my experience. I also went to another parish in the Antiochene archdiocese and had the same experience.

The other thing that bugged me was whenever I spoke to an Orthodox believer they could tell me a lot about Orthodoxy but not a lot about Jesus. Perhaps that subjective on my part but again it was my experience. I have also traveled to a traditionally Orthodox country (Russia and Ukraine) and my experience with the Orthodox church there was also uniformly negative especially with the clergy. This too was while I was in college.

I would mention that the Orthodox church also disagrees with the early fathers in places as well. Of course the ECF wrote a lot about a myriad of topics so that should not be surprising.

So those are my reasons for not staying. Reasons that pulled me the other direction? I loved the Liturgy, the prayers (most) and the overall atmosphere of an Orthodox church. In the final analysis what drove me away from Rome is what drove me away from Orthodoxy in addition to the above.
 
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Swan7

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@Isilwen
My story is just the opposite of yours. :) In my early Christian seeking years, I had been tried for recruitment on a few occasions to the Catholic church. I have also attended a Ukrainian Catholic church in my middle teens because of my then boyfriend. Every time I had gone to either of those churches, I never felt like I belonged there. I got to see what it's like to have a "family" of believers from an outside perspective. Something in me was telling me to not get too close and I never understood why.
In my late teens, I asked for all the information on what it is they believe - and they freely gave. I did a bunch of research and studying God's Word with His help and what I found was that Catholicism is not at all reflecting God. It's actually reflecting an idol, an ideology about God and twisting the meaning of Who God really is.

To those who identify themselves as Catholic, I am by no means condemning you. I'm only pointing out that Catholicism is relied fully on human interpretation rather than God's interpretation of Himself through the Holy Spirit.

I did not get the answers from myself, but from God (my heart being open to His instruction and teaching). He showed me why I was very hesitant in becoming a member - in fact I'm not a member of any denomination. I'm a member of Christ's body which is the true church because Jesus Christ formed it first - and not by human hands.

I hope this helps you :yellowheart:
 
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Major1

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Having very recently left Catholicism and I am getting much blow back from Catholics because I did. Lots of you're going to hell type comments and the Catholic church is the only church that Jesus is in or that he started. My favorites are that I left because of the scandals or the LGBT movement. I will say that I lean liberal in many things, but also conservative in others. I vote independent and not down party lines.

I left because I just don't agree with Catholicism and I was what they considered a cradle Catholic. I have been doing much research into Catholicism over the past few years, reading about the early church fathers and early Christianity and what I have come to realize is that the phrase, "history is written by the victors" is so true! What I see is that they are the true church because they were the first ones to claim it and nothing more.

Also don't believe the old phrase, "Once Catholic, always Catholic." Especially for those who through no choice of their own were baptized Catholic as infants such as I was. Had I been given a choice, I wouldn't have been Catholic. I believe that is just a way to scare you into staying with Catholicism. I am not necessarily against being baptized as an infant, just that the baptism doesn't bind you to one denomination.

So, after realizing that I just don't agree with many things that the Catholic church says, I couldn't stay.

What can I do about these other Catholics coming down so hard on me?

Haven't chosen a church to attend yet, as I didn't go this weekend wanting a break from things and having too much to do around my apartment.

I will say that I want to stay liturgical and am leaning Episcopal.

I wish that there was some kind of magic formula I could give you but there isn't one.

I have talked with, counseled and prayed for more people just like you than I can remember in the past 50 years.

When it is all said and done, you are going to have to believe God and HIS WORD and believe that it is the way of salvation and peace and joy.

You are not going to stand in front of any of your past friends or RCC believers. YOU just like them will stand in front of the Lord Jesus Christ and give an account of your life.

I promise you that the best and only way to go from here is faithfulness in Christ as found only in His written Word.

I am a Southern Baptist because after looking at and studying ALL protestant denominations, they are the closest to following the written Word of God. IMO!
 
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Major1

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As I said, through my baptism as a Catholic I was born again. I am not going to debate that.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a Bible Scripture that validates your comment?
 
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Isilwen

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Just out of curiosity, do you have a Bible Scripture that validates your comment?

I am not answering because I am not debating as I have said countless times in this thread!

Cannot people respect my decision and not comment on anything beyond what I actually asked for advice on?
 
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tampasteve

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Just out of curiosity, do you have a Bible Scripture that validates your comment?

I am not answering because I am not debating as I have said countless times in this thread!

Cannot people respect my decision and not comment on anything beyond what I actually asked for advice on?

Good call, this is a non-debate forum as it is. People should be giving advice based on your OP, not admonishing or questioning your decisions. This is not the forum for that.

From the SOP for this forum:
"All advice should be given in the spirit of love and humility, extending grace and respect towards one another in an effort to encourage and uplift the member seeking advice...............With this in mind, posts that chastise or belittle another member will be deleted and the member may be banned from the thread. Posts that debate rather than advise will also be deleted and the member may be banned from the thread"
 
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Light of the East

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But my friend ,in the parish and on the ground snooty ethnicity was my experience. I also went to another parish in the Antiochene archdiocese and had the same experience.

The other thing that bugged me was whenever I spoke to an Orthodox believer they could tell me a lot about Orthodoxy but not a lot about Jesus. Perhaps that subjective on my part but again it was my experience. I have also traveled to a traditionally Orthodox country (Russia and Ukraine) and my experience with the Orthodox church there was also uniformly negative especially with the clergy. This too was while I was in college.

I would mention that the Orthodox church also disagrees with the early fathers in places as well. Of course the ECF wrote a lot about a myriad of topics so that should not be surprising.

I all too much understand that. When I entered the Byzantine Catholic Church, I heard one day from a mutual convert friend that he had overheard some oldtimers referring to the newcomers as "boat people."

Sheesh!
 
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Swan7

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Just out of curiosity, do you have a Bible Scripture that validates your comment?

Just a reminder, you are speaking to a Christian SEEKER. The Bible also instructs is to be mindful of such individuals. :yellowheart:
 
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BornX2Leah2017

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First of all, congratulations!! This is huge. I think your decision was courageous, to leave your church & friends, knowing there would be persecution, to stick up for your beliefs & calling. I pray this is a catalyst to an on-going journey into discovering who GOD says HE is!
 
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LoricaLady

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Having very recently left Catholicism and I am getting much blow back from Catholics because I did. Lots of you're going to hell type comments and the Catholic church is the only church that Jesus is in or that he started. My favorites are that I left because of the scandals or the LGBT movement. I will say that I lean liberal in many things, but also conservative in others. I vote independent and not down party lines.

I left because I just don't agree with Catholicism and I was what they considered a cradle Catholic. I have been doing much research into Catholicism over the past few years, reading about the early church fathers and early Christianity and what I have come to realize is that the phrase, "history is written by the victors" is so true! What I see is that they are the true church because they were the first ones to claim it and nothing more.

Also don't believe the old phrase, "Once Catholic, always Catholic." Especially for those who through no choice of their own were baptized Catholic as infants such as I was. Had I been given a choice, I wouldn't have been Catholic. I believe that is just a way to scare you into staying with Catholicism. I am not necessarily against being baptized as an infant, just that the baptism doesn't bind you to one denomination.

So, after realizing that I just don't agree with many things that the Catholic church says, I couldn't stay.

What can I do about these other Catholics coming down so hard on me?

Haven't chosen a church to attend yet, as I didn't go this weekend wanting a break from things and having too much to do around my apartment.

I will say that I want to stay liturgical and am leaning Episcopal.
I was raised Catholic for a few years in my childhood. Later I became an unbeliever altogether. But the Father worked on my heart and I did go back to the Catholic Church for awhile. They had a kind of retreat there, called Cursillo. And there I accepted the Savior. There I feel I saw some people who were very sincere. So I do believe Catholics can be saved.

However, as I began to study the Bible I saw a great disconnect. One day I was in a secular bookstore and saw a little book called Conversations With Catholics. I felt led to buy it. It was very historical, very Biblical in its approach. After reading it I knew I could never go to another mass. I had my choice, the Bible, or the Vatican and its doctrines of men. There was no contest for me. I chose the Bible.

Of the many things that concerned me in that book, the worst for me was hearing that around the world RC priests are saying, "We offer up this living sacrifice" while they hold up a little piece of bread that is supposed to have the Messiah in it. The Bible says "He is not here. He is risen" and "He was sacrificed once for all." Also, who offered Him up to be sacrificed at Golgotha? His friends or His enemies?

Now I have to say that, having then gone onto Protestantism, I saw, with more historical and Biblical research, that it too was not really conforming to the Bible. It was, in my opinion, way more conformed to Scriptures than the RCC, but still having many traditions of men. Just a few of these would include Christmas and Easter, and a Sunday "Sabbath." (If anyone wants to argue with any of this, let's remember this is not a debate forum and my remarks are for the OP, per forum rules.)

As for those who don't like your switch, why let them bother you at all? Just say you have done your research and made up your mind and they are free to do the same, but it's not really a topic you want to discuss anymore. Don't let them get you into fruitless arguments. Back off. Leave if you have to. With a smile.

And btw nothing in the Bible says to go to Church on Sundays or any other day. The apostles met in Synagogues and in others homes to fellowship. We are to fellowship, yes, but the early believers never heard of a building with a cross on top where people went to worship on Sundays.

The Greek word Church is a translation from ekklesia, which simply means a gathering of believers anywhere at any time.

If you ever want to see an approach to the Bible that leads out of traditions of men, I suggest Psalm 119 Ministry's vids. They are the most scholarly source I have ever seen and I have seen a lot, but they are not dry or boring. Two of the vids that might be of interest are The Sabbath and The Pauline Paradox.
 
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Isilwen

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Now I have to say that, having then gone onto Protestantism, I saw, with more historical and Biblical research, that it too was not really conforming to the Bible. It was, in my opinion, way more conformed to Scriptures than the RCC, but still having many traditions of men. Just a few of these would include Christmas and Easter, and a Sunday "Sabbath." (If anyone wants to argue with any of this, let's remember this is not a debate forum and my remarks are for the OP, per forum rules.)


And btw nothing in the Bible says to go to Church on Sundays or any other day. The apostles met in Synagogues and in others homes to fellowship. We are to fellowship, yes, but the early believers never heard of a building with a cross on top where people went to worship on Sundays.

Thank you for your replies, but I disagree with you. There is a reason why we worship on Sundays and there needs to be some tradition in a church.

I will always go with a liturgical church.

Again, Thank you for your replies, but I will continue to look for as you call it a Sunday worshiping church and there is no prohibition against Christmas or Easter in the Bible. We are free to celebrate or not per scripture.
 
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