venerating relics question

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi TAW friends! It's been a while I wanted to ask you a question.. I asked elsewhere but did not receive many responses. I don't really know how to ask an Orthodox priest in time.

On Monday there will be an exposition of relics at a Catholic church in my area. There will be relics of many Catholic Saints, but also general Christian relics such as - St Paul, St Peter, other Apostles, some early Church Fathers, etc. Also the relic of the True Cross.

I know that Orthodox are not really allowed to pray in Catholic churches, which I understand. My dad is Orthodox.. I don't have a car and I really wanted to go to this exposition, but the only way is if he drives me. Then, he said he would want to come too. However, I don't want to get my dad "in trouble" with the Orthodox church, especially if this violates a canon and results in a canonical penalty of some kind.. even though I'm Catholic, this wouldn't be helpful to him.

My question is, based on general consensus in the Orthodox church (let's say, ROCOR, since that's my dad's church) - would it be wrong for me to ask my dad to drive me and come with me to the exposition? would it be wrong for him to venerate relics there IF they are not Catholic only relics? (but of the Apostles etc). Also, the exposition is not happening in the church itself, but in the church hall, presumably because there is not enough room in the church for something like this, with the pews etc. The veneration is individual, not as a group worshipping/praying together.

Thanks!

 

[Ortho_Cat]

If I were him I might go and venerate the relics (or at least observe), but might skip out on those of the post-schism saints (not because they are necessarily bad or not holy, but because we plead ignorance concerning them from an Orthodox perspective).

 

[Ortho_Cat]

disclaimer: i'd also ask him to ask his priest if he approves

 

[Knee V]

We're just not supposed to engage in non-Orthodox prayers/rituals. If it's a relic of someone like St Peter, I would venerate it in a mosque if that's where it happened to be.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks for the reply!

I agree the ideal situation would just be for my dad to ask his priest...however there are difficulties with him getting to the church etc.

Well there would be relics of many, many Saints and my dad doesn't really know them because they're Catholic, he seemed interested in the Apostles... if he only venerated the relics of the Apostles and other similar relics that are not of post-schism Saints, - would that be okay, cause what about it being in a Catholic church? I know the thing about "communicatio in sacris", sharing in sacred rites, we Catholics have it too.. for example my priest said if I visit an Orthodox church, I should just observe. So when Orthodox are not able to pray in Catholic church, I understand, cause we're not united yet. I don't know what this falls under though.. it's not a liturgy, everyone can just pray on their own, but I read somewhere that Orthodox should not say silent prayers in Catholic churches either. Clearly I don't really know the Orthodox pov so here I am

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We're just not supposed to engage in non-Orthodox prayers/rituals. If it's a relic of someone like St Peter, I would venerate it in a mosque if that's where it happened to be.

okay I see! as far as I know there would not be any prayers/rituals, I think there will be a priest who would introduce the exposition, (with a talk on what relics are etc) and then people can just walk around and look at them, and venerate if they want to. There would be St Peter and other Apostles too.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

From what I see, Orthodox are not into over-scrupulosity and legalism. An Orthodox Christian isn't going to enter a state of "mortal sin" or persona non grata with some rule somewhere for driving a lady to a church.

 

[gracefullamb]

From what I see, Orthodox are not into over-scrupulosity and legalism. An Orthodox Christian isn't going to enter a state of "mortal sin" or persona non grata with some rule somewhere for driving a lady to a church.

I surely hope so or I am in trouble and have a lot to confess! My mother has many health problems that dictate she cannot drive so much anymore so I have had to take her to church many times.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm not saying this is a sin in Catholicism either.. I just dont know.

what if you went to the church with the person, in addition to driving them there? (for the sake of convenience or interest I guess)

 

[Joshua G.]

Hey Monica:

Put the requests at your Dad's feet and tell him that you totally respect what ever decision he makes and that you would never want him to do anything he'd be uncomfortable with. He's a big boy.

Some months ago I worried if I should invite my friend to pick up my Catholic friend who had just moved in to town and had/has no car and take him to Church with me if he so desired. I asked in OBOB if he would be breaking his weekly obligation by going certain weeks to an Orthodox Church instead of a Catholic one not in order to avoid or to seek alternatives but just to go.

But then I realized, my friend can make his own decisions. So, I told him that if he was ever not able to make it to his Church, I would have no problem picking him up on our way to Church SUnday morning and he was very thankful. He's never taken me up on it, and although I expect that it was not due to scruples about Holy Days of Obligation, even if it was, I totally respec that. But in the end, he knows that I have made a gesture showing care for his spiritual well-being and if he ever did take me up on it, I would not lose a minute of sleep as to whether God is mad at him because he missed Mass for Liturgy lol.

So, the ROCORs scrupulocity (as right as they may be) is not your concern. As long as you respect your Father's decision no matter what (which you of course do!) and he knows it, then you have done your part.

 

[gracefullamb]

I know that Orthodox are not really allowed to pray in Catholic churches, which I understand. My dad is Orthodox.. I don't have a car and I really wanted to go to this exposition, but the only way is if he drives me. Then, he said he would want to come too. However, I don't want to get my dad "in trouble" with the Orthodox church, especially if this violates a canon and results in a canonical penalty of some kind.. even though I'm Catholic, this wouldn't be helpful to him.

You have answer, right there. Your dad said he would take you and he would want to venerate the relics of post-schism Saints. It is very sweet for you to be concerned, but let your dad take you, if he wishes to do so.

I was being silly the way I worded the first part of my initial comment and apologize if that troubled you any. I would think it would be more troubling for one to turn their back on a family member asking for help, then to actually help them. It sounds like your dad already has it covered on what he can do and cannot do, so there should be no more reason for you to worry.

 

[Joshua G.]

Monica, I read your post to fast. forgive me.

I agree 100% with Gracefullamb.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thank you for the replies

I think from what it sounds like, my dad would be interested in going... of course it is his choice I just know that in the past, when we visited Catholic cathedrals while travelling as a family, my dad prayed there too (silently) as walked around and looked at the artwork, etc... and when I went to Mass while travelling, it happened that my parents came too, and just observed (mostly because of a language barrier, and they know about not receiving Communion).

But then I read something from ROCOR about how Orthodox should not pray inside Catholic churches, I don't know if that refers to liturgy or in general... but I felt bad for causing my parents to do this if their church is against it. My dad actually likes looking at the cathedrals too though, and he wasn't aware of this ROCOR rule.. should I talk to him about it? However he's never asked his priest about this, mostly because it's very rarely that my family goes to the Orthodox church - for various reasons... (my dad is very dedicated to faith though, and is not against going to church at all).

With the relics, I don't think my dad would venerate post-Schism Saints' relics because he doesn't know them anyway, but maybe he would venerate relics of the Apostles, and I wanted to make sure this is okay cause it's in a Catholic church. The reason I thought it might potentially be different is becaues it's not a service or a liturgy or even common prayer, it's just people venerating relics individually. I'll keep praying to make the right decision.. I just know that if I say that I don't want to go anymore, then my dad wouldn't go either... so while this is his choice, my choice also affects his choice in a way. That's why I made this thread. I remember posting about this before somewhere, and some people thought it's strange that I was concerned - since I'm Catholic... but I think even if I'm Catholic and even if I believe it's the true Church, even if I would love for my dad to be Catholic - I wouldn't want to put him in bad standing with his own church or be excommunicated or something. When we talk about religion, we mostly always just focus on the things we have in common like faith in Christ, prayer, Sacraments, Mary.

Sorry this is so complicated lol - I honestly wish the Schism had never happened but if anyone has anymore thoughts please do share! I know it's my parents' choice, but if they choose to come with me to church, I can't decide what I should think or do about it.. because as a Catholic, I don't mind at all, but since they're Orthodox, it would be unhelpful to get them in trouble with their church. Like some time ago, I decided to go to Adoration, and mom wanted to come too - I didn't even ask, but she wanted to just spend some quiet time there. When they came to Mass in the past, they never received Communion and didn't really participate much either, because they dont know the words. However then I read that even silent praying is prohibited. I'm so confused lol! Sorry for this rambling post! I should add, after visiting the Catholic churches, - that didn't cause my dad to doubt Orthodoxy as far as I'm aware.. he sees himself as Orthodox, but likes how the Catholic church also believes in Jesus. So basically he respects it as I respect the EOC too. God bless!

 

[ProScribe]

Not really anything to worry about . .

 

[Joshua G.]

Im not confused as to why you're concerned. You want to be respectful.

Bring it up to him so it's on his conscience. He will decide and then it's done and I am sure he will still want to go. Well, I'm not SURE... but I would be surprised if a guy who does love the Church but doesn't actually go to Liturgy is scrupulous enough to care about something like this.

Also, it's kind of late notice but I posted your question and situation in a fantastic Orthodox forum called Monachos. I was going to tell you to sign up and ask yourself but I htink they have to manually approve you which often takes a day and given the timeliness of your questions, I went ahead for you. I hope you don't mind.

ROCOR question (about entering other Churches)

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

Usually this forum is quite peaceful and respectful but I can't promise anything! lol so forgive any snide remarks.

If you are lucky you will recieve a response from a Fr. Raphael Vereshack who is an extremely personable, charitable, godly ROCOR monk priest (from Canada I believe) and I would take his response as gold. As for the rest... it might just make things as clear as mud for you lol

God bless!

Josh

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Josh, thanks SO much that's very kind of you I hope that Fr Raphael responds, or at least that I can get a fuller understanding of this issue. God bless!

 

[Andrew21091]

But then I read something from ROCOR about how Orthodox should not pray inside Catholic churches, I don't know if that refers to liturgy or in general... but I felt bad for causing my parents to do this if their church is against it. My dad actually likes looking at the cathedrals too though, and he wasn't aware of this ROCOR rule.. should I talk to him about it? However he's never asked his priest about this, mostly because it's very rarely that my family goes to the Orthodox church - for various reasons... (my dad is very dedicated to faith though, and is not against going to church at all).

I guess it depends on how one feels about the Catholic Church. If I find one that is unlocked in the middle of the day, I go in a say a quick prayer and I often stop into one of the Polish churches and light a candle at the small shrine for Our Lady of Czestochowa.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

thanks for the replies!

I'm glad that two priests replied in that thread (thanks again Joshua!)

It seems that it's okay, which is good

I remembered something though, - the veneration itself is individual and not as a group, and there won't be any common prayer/worship as far as I'm aware, but there will be a short talk by a priest before the exposition on why relics are venerated etc. Does that fall under participating in a non Orthodox service? or is it just listening to a talk? It will also be in the church hall. I don't imagine that he would say anything that Orthodox would disagree with, since we both venerate relics, and a talk is not worship? any thoughts?

it's really cool cause they'll have relics of many of the Apostles

thanks!

 

[Damaris]

As long as he does not say prayers or anything, it should be fine. Listening to a talk should not be a problem.

There's a RC church in New York City with a relic of St. Anna, mother of the Theotokos. I wasn't sure when the church would be open other than services. So to make sure I could get in without a problem, I decided to go there while there was a weekday afternoon mass. I just sat in the back corner for the duration of the service, so no one would notice I wasn't crossing myself or kneeling. After the service, I went over to the shrine and venerated the relic. It was no problem and I doubt anybody noticed what I was doing.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Unless I had some reason to believe that these relics of early saints were some kind of Catholic hoax...and I don't really see why I would believe that....I see no reason why an Orthodox Christian wouldn't want to venerate relics of Orthodox saints, no matter where they happen to be kept. It is the relic that we would be venerating, not the people who control them.