Vegan Thread While Forum Would Be Wanted

[FredVB]

If we who are vegan and believers will still talk enough through this, we can be noticed. It is called for, I know some are searching, and we should be active in a place for them to find.

 

[FredVB]

This is really an issue, and there is a problem. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/christian-veganism.7889661/ is an example how a searcher interested in Christianity and wanting to reconcile it with understanding vegan perspective is shut up and turned away. They need to know we are here, and we can discuss it.

 

[FredVB]

All creation is groaning, with hope that waits for the full manifestation of the redemption, which is to come as was said for us. When will it come? It will not while we don't really want God's will on earth as it is in heaven.

Many Christian believers dismiss such concerns that vegans voice, but godliness they should desire does not give basis for the dismissal with disregarding the reality and avoiding that level of compassion, regardless of the perfection of God's creation not showing that animals were to be used, regardless of the restoration to that perfection on God's holy mountain in visions of what is coming, in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65, with it said creation groans waiting for that hope, and regardless of Proverbs 12:10.

 

[FredVB]

I don't know how people generally just remain in ignorance of the atrocity of life-long abuse to all the animals in the industry for use to humanity, even eggs and dairy, and other items, and for experiments. And how do some who learn any of it brush it off? What are they?

 

[FredVB]

Proverbs 12:10
A righteous man regards the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

If you get past the disconnection and make the connection with reality, don't have anything to do with support for the wicked and the cruel with your choices. And God shows he cares.

Some will argue the vegan perspective thinking they have the biblical perspective effective for that. But any of that is with limited understanding already having a bias.

Did God provide the birds for the people of Israel for the forty years? No, it was just the manna for them thoughout that time, the birds were provided just the one time, when those people with hardened hearts and little faith complained for lacking meat, as if nothing is good enough for them without it. God did give that to them, to the point that they all got really sick, and there wouldn't be complaining about lacking meat again. And the vision of the sheet with unclean animals let down was, from the context, as a vision clearly about including any, gentiles too, for coming to Christ with the gospel shown to them, and for them to not be called unclean, not anything else like getting more things permitted to eat, and Acts 15 shows that.

 

[FredVB]

Choose right, this will still be in godliness, and God cares as was shown, that the way animals are used now is NOT justified. Then, any of you who are vegan should be counted, that we who choose this rightly, who are increasing, are really seen.
http://www.howmanyvegans.com/

 

[FredVB]

I can imagine one looking at this communication thinking, sure, I see why I should choose not to have meat from the farm factories, but I could still choose seafood along with otherwise vegetarian food. Besides it being known that fish suffer pain according to all all the evidence shown from studies, that would be experienced from the way they are caught and killed, there are real issues to the consumers, and with impact in our world from such consumption too.

Seafood Can Impact Brain Development
I discussed evidence suggesting that mercury exposure through fish intake during pregnancy may decrease the size of the newborn’s brain. However, just because fish-eating mothers may give birth to children with smaller brains doesn’t necessarily mean their children will grow up with neurological defects. In the above video, you can see real-time functional MRI scans of teens whose moms ate a lot of seafood when pregnant. Because these kinds of scans can measure brain activity, as opposed to just brain size, we can more accurately determine if exposure to mercury and PCBs affected these kids. We can see an MRI of what a normal brain looks like when we flash a light in someone’s eyes, but the MRI is significantly different for the mercury and PCB exposed brains, suggesting toxicant related damage to the visual centers in brain. (For more on the effect of mercury on teens, see Nerves of Mercury.) Fish consumption may also increase the risk of our children being born with epilepsy.
So does maternal fish consumption have an effect on how smart our kids turn out? The DHA in fish—a long chain omega 3 fatty acid—is good for brain development, but mercury is bad for brain development. So a group of researchers looked at 33 different fish species to see what the net effect of these compounds would have on children’s IQ. For most fish species, they found that “the adverse effect of mercury on the IQ scores of children exceeded the beneficial effects of DHA.” In fact, so much brainpower may be lost from fish consumption that the United States may actually lose $5 billion in economic productivity every year.

For example, if pregnant women ate tuna every day, the DHA would add a few IQ points. But the mercury in that very same tuna would cause so much brain damage that the overall effect of eating tuna while pregnant would be negative, wiping out an average of eight IQ points. The only two fish that were more brain-damaging than tuna were pike and swordfish.

At the other end of the spectrum, the brain boosting effect of DHA may trump the brain damaging effects of mercury in salmon by a little less than one IQ point. Unfortunately, IQ only takes into consideration the cognitive damage caused by mercury, not the adverse effects on motor function and attention and behavior deficits. We think that attention span may be particularly vulnerable to developmental mercury exposure, probably due to damage to the frontal lobes of the brain.

And the IQ study didn’t take into account the relatively high levels of PCBs in salmon and the accompanying concerns about cancer risk. Sustainability concerns are another wrinkle, as farm-raised salmon are considered a “fish to avoid.” While king mackerel is considered a best choice for sustainability, the mercury levels are so high as to warrant avoiding consumption—exceeding both the FDA and EPA action levels for mercury contamination. But why risk any loss in intelligence at all when pregnant women can get all the DHA they want from microalgae supplements without any of the contaminants. We can then get the brain boost without the brain damage.

There also other ways of having false thinking, that can be brought up in this thread. Here are other links for addressing some of such thinking, along with seeing issues.
http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/protein-demand-is-destroying-the-planet
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vegan-lifestyle-save-lives-2050_us_56fe75fde4b0a06d58056f03

 

[FredVB]

There are forums among these that I am not likely to post on, as they don't seem to be the right ones for me, but if such touch on reference to vegan eating, it can catch my attention. Generally it seems to be with negative comments with regard to a vegan choice, except with a case of posts from a vegan if there is one among those posting there. This is a recent example of that.

Vegan hot dog? What are they made out of?

A variety of things, tofu, root vegetables, etc. There are some pretty good ones now.
Plus, and this is for Bill, if you grill a big carrot and serve it on a hot dog bun with fixins, it tasted very good. Not exactly like a hot dog but good in its own right.

Riiiiiight. Sorry not if you put a gun to my head.

This response is such for an example of the negative response. Was it needed? If there was a response that was thought to be needed, a "No thanks" would have been really adequate. But the food item mentioned, or any edible food, is never so undesirable that one would rather have a gun closely held to the head than to try it. This is just such a response, as there often is, to suggest that vegan options must always be so bad, beyond other choices, with such an exaggeration used for that. This happens, as if the poster, or such others saying anything like that, never ate any item at all that any vegans would eat, that is, an item without any animal product.

Communication like this, with any vegan reference, is common. Any of us vegans would benefit with a place for our helpful communication between us in these forums.

 

[FredVB]

Some who would speak contrary to choosing vegan, with consideration of what is said in the Bible, will think of Genesis 9, specifically verse 3, as being conclusive against a vegan position. It has a challenge to it that we believers who are vegan see should be addressed. But there is greater difficulty from the meat eaters from that, they are neglecting more requirement and what is said from the chapter. There is terror being caused choosing this, and that is not godly. Vegans can see this permission is a concession, yet whether it is or isn't, killing animals for food is addressed together with addressing any taking of life, which includes murder, and saying there is responsibility for life, and there is requirement that most are not observing that blood must all be removed, for having the meat from it to eat. While being vegan, as it was the ideal diet for us from the beginning, is not disobedient to that, most meat eaters, at least, are in disobedience to that.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Hi
I'm a long time vegan and would welcome veg*n discussion on animal rights, sharing recipes, recommendations for finding vegan non food items, fitness and health for vegans, or just fun chat!

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

A vegan made it to the summit of Everest today!

 

[FredVB]

There is in fact yet only enough communication for such a vegan thread, while this is surely needed, there are not that many Christian vegans being active communicating for it, for a vegan forum on CF, or in fact other vegans for it. But those questioning Christians here with vegan issues involved should be found and guided to our communication in a timely manner, they have been cut off in discussion at times and then they give up in the forums and maybe considering Christianity anymore. But with more of our communication here for it, we may have basis at some time yet to come for getting a forum for this, but this will indeed need more of us communicating for it. That can happen I am sure, veganism is really growing in these times, and in our times there really should be a vegan shift and it is truly needed, in view of many issues.

There are great examples for successful lives of vegans. This is one example, http://www.veganmuscleandfitness.com/success-stories/

To be sure, some of the things said for it are from those using a fully plant-based diet. Vegans are such really when they have some of their motive for the animals, that there isn't contribution to any of the animals' suffering from their choices, so they become mindful of the choices, with information, and they persist with the plant-based diet, as vegans, as others doing it are not so sure to persist, as motives are rethought, as may be done when greater health has already come.

It is certain, and more should know, that a whole food plant-based diet is very much healthier, fighting and even reversing heart and circulatory problems, various cancers, type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and other problems. There are further examples of that, such as this,
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/success-story/success-story-details/ruth-h

 

[FredVB]

I know this, that veganism is growing, because it answers what is needed in many ways for different things. Christian believers are resistant to change, beyond just believing, but there is godliness in changing to vegan living with what is shown in Yahweh God's perfect will, as it is in heaven, to be desired for here, which should start in our lives. Though it lags, the number of vegan Christians is sure to grow.

 

[makeajoyfulnoise100]

I'm a transitioning vegan and would love recipes. I have never baked in my life but would love to learn vegan baking. I started this diet simply because of how I feel about eating animals. I don't judge others for eating meat, but it is just something that has always bothered me.

Another interesting thing is Daniel's diet. I would want to know if he kept that diet throughout his time with Nebecanezzar.

Thank you for this thread!

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I'm a transitioning vegan and would love recipes. I have never baked in my life but would love to learn vegan baking. I started this diet simply because of how I feel about eating animals. I don't judge others for eating meat, but it is just something that has always bothered me.

Another interesting thing is Daniel's diet. I would want to know if he kept that diet throughout his time with Nebecanezzar.

Thank you for this thread!

I've done a lot of cooking vegan, but haven't done much baking...but my kids bought me a cookbook called Vegan Chocolate, and we baked our first vegan brownies from there...they were excellent, even a hit with our non vegan friends. There are lots of good vegan baking recipes online too, I would just avoid any the use apple sauce in place of eggs...in my opinion that makes things too sweet.

 

[FredVB]

I'm a transitioning vegan and would love recipes. I have never baked in my life but would love to learn vegan baking. I started this diet simply because of how I feel about eating animals. I don't judge others for eating meat, but it is just something that has always bothered me.
Another interesting thing is Daniel's diet. I would want to know if he kept that diet throughout his time with Nebecanezzar.
Thank you for this thread!

I've done a lot of cooking vegan, but haven't done much baking...but my kids bought me a cookbook called Vegan Chocolate, and we baked our first vegan brownies from there...they were excellent, even a hit with our non vegan friends. There are lots of good vegan baking recipes online too, I would just avoid any the use apple sauce in place of eggs...in my opinion that makes things too sweet.

If makeajoyfulnoise100 is still coming to these forums, and wanting this information that was asked for, I would say I also heard of using apple sauce, that will be good for consistency in cooking and baking things. I haven't tried it though. I don't know about the flavor from that, so I think if it sweetens things more, it can be used for baking sweet things. I will have to try it yet. I have been using flaxseed though, it is very healthy to be using it, with the nutrients from it, and it does give good consistency where thickening is wanted.

Daniel, and I am sure his three Hebrew friends, did keep that diet, for the same reasons that just using fruits and vegetables, and water, was requested to start with, and I am sure they still had pulses and seeds or nuts with it. They avoided Babylonian foods, with the unclean animal products, and they were visibly quite healthier from it, and this can be understood to be expected from what modern studies show there would be for those using a whole food plant-based way of eating. The three friends don't seem to be mentioned again after they were miraculously delivered safely from being burned in the fiery furnace they were cast into. But Daniel is shown to have lived a long life, with having come to Babylon from Jerusalem with the first of those to have been taken, serving as a capable youth then, eleven years before the Babylonians destroyed the city, and took few survivors that were left then as captives, and then, seventy years after, he was still an active figure when the Medo-Persians conquered Babylon, and he was in their service then.

I don't judge others just for their eating meat, or any animal products, either. But there is something wrong in persisting to use those when the reasons why there should be change from using those are known, with a healthy way to be eating possible with not using those. And it should be known, with the knowledge being shared, this change is not a sacrifice, when more delicious vegan recipes are learned, and tastes change to prefer the healthier food when any of it is used more.

 

[FredVB]

I don't come here much anymore, my home forum was deleted as the whole place has continuously moved to the right, and there's no place here for people like me. I check in every once in a while, but with less and less frequency

I am sorry in a way. If CF was formatted the way it was several years ago with an earlier server, I would have liked being a friend with you through this, but the way it is now it is not working for having friends in the forums. I would be here to be in communication still. I will still say vegan Christians are really growing in numbers significantly, while veganism is large enough it is becoming mainstream. But here in these forums they really need to be represented. Even atheists are well represented in the forums.Discussions that bring up veganism, as happens occasionally, just has posters dismissing it with reasons that aren't true, and either no one is there to say otherwise or one speaking for veganism, or asking about it, is far outnumbered by the others speaking falsely about it. Though they say otherwise veganism is very consistent with Christianity

 

[FredVB]

My position on this is stronger than what has been communicated. While there should be more vegan presence on these forums than the apparently few that are still left, who haven't moved along from here, such as makeajoyfulnoise100 hopefully would be here still, I don't speak simply for veganism to be accepted as a valid option, that any could choose and with which they should still be accepted. My position is that there are no worthwhile reasons that justify not being vegan, and it is for anyone who can, pretty much everyone, especially if they can come online and read about these things, to be vegan. Which reason or reasons can really be dismissed with a more important reason to not be vegan, when people being vegan will be important for their own health if they generally avoid processed foods, for the environment, for lessening contribution to global warming that is happening, for using less resources that is taken for using animal industry, that would permit more food to be available that can feed starving people in places our civilization has exploited that put people there in those circumstances, and of course for billions and billions of animals in miserable conditions that are bred and used for slaughtering for human use, when there is human responsibility to not have any animals in their control suffering (Proverbs 12:10, as if we don't have a conscience for that but need a scripture that tells us)?

 

[FredVB]

I do want a forum, or a subforum, for it. But that is not going to happen, here. Many of you members drive vegans away in discussion, many of them go somewhere else online. There are other places I can find. And there are nonbelieving vegans who are kept from Christianity and driven away with them inquiring how veganism or vegetarianism might be involved in Christianity. Christians generally give a response like there is no place, for either of those, in Christianity.

Yet there are responsibilities shown from the Bible that believers have. Revelation 11:18 shows that God dislikes the destructiveness in this world, and such happens from the choices of most of us. We should not dismiss others who suffer and die, from what the choices of many of us are involved in, I am speaking here of people too, not just the obvious animals we use. And this world really does not have long for there to be a needed change, toward what includes veganism. There is not use of animals in eternity, certainly.

Genesis 1:29

Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 65:25

Being vegan is best for our world and the natural environments, with stopping the biggest contribution to climate change, reducing the needed use of limited water resources, and with stopping deforestation, for having more food to be grown that would feed starving people who die as it is, relieve animals being bred to only suffer and be slaughtered for the demand among people for their products, and with giving up processed foods would be better for the health of any of us. It is just giving up any products derived from animals.

Proverbs 12:10

We are responsible with our choices, it is not for us to turn a blind eye to anything, in that.

There are spiritual gifts to believers, for them to develop fruit in their lives, including tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering patience, and bearing and forgiving others, with there being love and compassion.

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

I've been a vegan near a year I think and my experience it's not easy. Especially If you have circumstances being the only vegan living at home, not buying the groceries, and a limited budget. So I understand people's reluctance, it's not only political or religious but very difficult. All my meals are separate from my family, very strict diet of certain foods everyday even processed foods like canned beans and peanut butter for protein and fats. As for nutrients or vitamins like B-12 I eat refined cereal with soy milk (which has added vitamins too).

The main reasons I became a vegan is harm to the climate/environment, industrial mass breeding with hormones/antibiotics etc. and the poor conditions/animal abuse, also health eating food that's better for my body and lowers my chances getting diseases like heart disease. I'll admit still ignorant and far from ideal as a vegan, as am I as a Christian; but I think even non-vegans can be moved toward veganism by addressing those major three points.

In my mind regardless of your beliefs about climate change for example, it's undeniable people have an affect on the environment like pollution. Further connect it to health, if smoking is harmful to your body and mass consumption of animal products; then why wouldn't you support less pollution and less industrial mass breeding? The earth has an ecosystem like the body has an immune system, some things it can tolerate and heal; but if we continuously harm it and not allow regular healing (wellness), the harm will have greater severity and lasting damage.