Various accounts of the first vision and their similarities and differences

[A New Dawn]

Do the words that Heavenly Father and Jesus spoke to Joseph vary in any of these accounts? Because you seem to be questioning the validity of it as revelation. And it is only the message Joseph received that is revelation. Why not post two sources that show how the various version of the encounter give different messages from God and His Son.

These are the various accounts of the first vision.

1832 The Strange account (only account in the handwriting of Joseph Smith)

… thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that <mankind> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ …
marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath the wise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart …​

1834-1835 narrative by Oliver Cowdrey

“… On the evening of the 21st of September, 1823, previous to retiring to rest, our brother’s mind was unusually wrought up on the subject which had so long agitated his mind … all he desired was to be prepared in heart to commune with some kind of messenger who could communicate to him the desired information of his acceptance with God. “… While continuing in prayer for a manifestation in some way that his sins were forgiven; endeavoring to exercise faith in the scriptures, on a sudden a light like that of day, only of a purer and far more glorious appearance and brightness burst into the room … It is no easy task to describe the appearance of a messenger from the skies … But it may be well to relate the particulars as far as given — The stature of this personage was a little above the common size of men in this age; his garment was perfectly white, and had the appearance of being without seam. Though fear was banished from his heart, yet his surprise was no less when he heard him declare himself to be a messenger sent by commandment of the Lord, to deliver a special message, and to witness to him that his sins were forgiven, and that his prayers were heard;"​

1835 account given by Joseph Smith to a Jewish minister

“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”​

1838 account that became the official account

7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.
8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.
9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction÷not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being÷just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other — This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?
​

1844

When about fourteen years of age, I began to reflect upon the importance of being prepared for a future state; and upon inquiring the place of salvation, I found that there was a great clash in religious sentiment; if I went to one society they referred me to one place, and another to another; each one pointing to his particular creed as the "summum bonum" of perfection. Considering that all could not be right, and that God could not be the author of so much confusion, I determined to investigate the subject more fully, believing that if God had a church, it would not be split up into factions, and that if he taught one society to worship one way, and administer in one set of ordinances, he would not teach another principles which were diametrically opposed. Believing the word of God, I had confidence in the declaration of James, "If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him."

I retired to a secret place in a grove, and began to call upon the Lord. While fervently engaged in supplication, my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enrapt in a heavenly vision, and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light, which eclipsed the sun at noonday. They told me that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as His Church and Kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to "go not after them," at the same time receiving a promise that the fullness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me.

 

[A New Dawn]

Thread started per request of Ran77 to discuss the similarities and differences (and significance) of the different versions.

 

[Ran77]

As I understand it, there are four recountings of the First Vision given by Joseph Smith listed on LDS.org. The oldest account is the 1832 inclusion of it in his autobiography. The 1838 account was written to be part of the Church's official history and can be found in the Pearl of Great Price. The 1835 account was placed into Joseph's diary by Warren Cowdrey. And the 1842 account was recorded in a letter from Joseph Smith to John Wentworth.

A New Dawn's post includes an 1834-1835 and 1844 account as well. The 1834-1835 account is actually a history project written by Oliver Cowdrey. I had a harder time finding information on the 1844 account. If a credible source can be given for that I would appreciate it. However, if we are talking about discrepencies in what Joseph Smith offered about the First Vision, I think we have to leave out the 1834-1835 account that is written by someone else. Because at that point we have to consider the possibility that the error is Oliver Cowdrey's and not Joseph Smiths.


I'm out of time at the moment, but in my next post I plan to address some of the differences in the accounts.

 

[A New Dawn]

I had a harder time finding information on the 1844 account. If a credible source can be given for that I would appreciate it.

This is the information I found regarding the 1844 version.

1844 &#8212; Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism. Contained in, New Mormon Studies CD-ROM, Smith Research Associate

You can read the book here. http://books.google.com/books?id=OQgRAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Scroll down to pp 404-405.

 

[Moodshadow]

This is the information I found regarding the 1844 version.


You can read the book here. An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in ... - Google Books
Scroll down to pp 404-405.

Without even having to read into it very much, it's very easy to see that it differs greatly from the church's official version published in the D&C. It also differs from the one he wrote himself in Volume I of History of the Church. I would like to know if anyone knows who made the changes, and how the changes in the wording were arrived upon. (You'd think that by 1844 - the year he was killed - his stories would at least have been consistent.)

 

[Moodshadow]

Interesting that there have been no responses to my questions. In the intervening time I've been doing a little research and have come across some more information that is noteworthy. I remembered that there had been accounts of Joseph Smith's having seen an angel (or angels) in the so-called first vision, but couldn't recall particulars about that after so many years away from the church. But I've just found this in an 1855 sermon of Brigham Young the Journal of Discourses (Vol. 2, p. 171, to be exact):

The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven, in power and great glory, nor send His messengers panoplied with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek, the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere enquirer after the knowledge of God. But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith, Jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong...

Do you think it possible that Brigham Young was really unaware that Joseph Smith had claimed to see God the Father and Jesus Christ - or was it simply that that claim came after Young's 1855 sermon? (And don't bother telling me he was referring to Moroni here. You and I both know that Joseph Smith never asked Moroni which church was right, and according to Smith Moroni didn't appear until 1823 - three years after the first vision.) (And by the way, in the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price, the name of the angel who visited Joseph Smith in 1823 was Nephi, not Moroni. Good thing those church editors are on the ball.)

Did you know that in 1835, Joseph Smith wrote the book he titled History of the Church - and yet somehow he failed to make any mention whatsoever of the First Vision?

Just some more things for you to consider...

 

[Ran77]

I'd like to start off with something simple, Joseph's age.


The 1832 recounting that is part of his auto-biography:

" . . .this was a grief to my Soul thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind . . ."

AND

"[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> "

This indicates age 16.

Joseph inserted his age after the fact. I'm not sure how much after the fact that he did this. Could this be a matter of mistaken math? What is the significance of remembering his age when he had the first vision?


The 1835 recounting that is part of Joseph Smith's diary:

". . .and I saw many angels in this vision I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed. . ."

This indicates about age 14.

I have to wonder, if Joseph uses the word "about" wouldn't that indicate that he is making a rough estimation of his age? How important is it that he was accurate on remembering his exact age? This is, after all, 14 years after the fact.


The 1838 recounting that is part of the Church History:

"I was at this time in my fifteenth year."

This indicates age 15.


The 1842 recounting that is in a letter to John Wentworth.

&#8220;When about fourteen years of age . . ."

This indicates an age of about 14.

Again, this is an estimate and it comes in a year earlier than the official account.



The 1844 recounting that was written for a book about the history of various religions.

"When about fourteen years of age, I began to reflect upon the importance of being prepared for a future . . ."

This indicates an age of about 14.

Again, he makes an estimate of his age. I wonder, did Joseph ever get the date of the first vision wrong? Or is it only his recollection of how long ago that might have been and his age at that time?

 

[RevelationTestament]

Eye witness accounts are notoriously untrustworthy -
Not because the witnesses are untruthful, but because they invariably get details screwed up. Books etc can all be picked at in this same manner.

 

[A New Dawn]

In 1976, when I was 21 years old, I had my first encounter with God. I never say "about", I never forget the details because I remember it as if it were yesterday. Encounters with the divine are absolutely unforgettable. This is why I have a problem with considering the first vision to be true. If JS did meet God (or even an angel), it should have been mentioned loooong before 1838, and he should not have had to constantly change the details of the event till he got it right. He should have been able to repeat it as it happened, verbatim, each time he retold the story. That is what things that change your life, as he claimed this changed his life, do to you.

 

[Ran77]

Eye witness accounts are notoriously untrustworthy -
Not because the witnesses are untruthful, but because they invariably get details screwed up. Books etc can all be picked at in this same manner.

I agree.

 

[Moodshadow]

Eye witness accounts are notoriously untrustworthy -
Not because the witnesses are untruthful, but because they invariably get details screwed up. Books etc can all be picked at in this same manner.

So are we to infer from your statement that when Joseph Smith said in one account that he saw an angel (or angels), and in another account he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, neither should be taken as trustworthy?

 

[drstevej]

Again, he makes an estimate of his age. I wonder, did Joseph ever get the date of the first vision wrong? Or is it only his recollection of how long ago that might have been and his age at that time?

You would expect him to get the age right for such a life changing event.

I know precisely my age when I got married (25) and I bet you do too. That Smith would vacillate over this important of an event raises eyebrows and strains credulity...

 

[Moodshadow]

You would expect him to get the age right for such a life changing event.

I know precisely my age when I got married (25) and I bet you do too. That Smith would vacillate over this important of an event raises eyebrows and strains credulity...

Indeed - and the fact that he would omit it altogether - seeing the God of all Creation with his own eyes! - from his History of the Church, and then come up with ever-changing versions of the story later in his life, doesn't exactly instill confidence in his truthfulness, either.

 

[Ran77]

So are we to infer from your statement that when Joseph Smith said in one account that he saw an angel (or angels), and in another account he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, neither should be taken as trustworthy?

It's possible that he is saying that small details often get changed as the memory for many people is not perfect. Do you disagree with that statement? Do all people have perfect memories and never confuse small details?

 

[Moodshadow]

It's possible that he is saying that small details often get changed as the memory for many people is not perfect. Do you disagree with that statement? Do all people have perfect memories and never confuse small details?

In whose universe would a visitation from God Almighty be considered a small detail?

 

[Ran77]

You would expect him to get the age right for such a life changing event.

Why would I expect that? You know, don't bother to answer. I can state right here that I don't expect him to get the age right.

I know precisely my age when I got married (25) and I bet you do too. That Smith would vacillate over this important of an event raises eyebrows and strains credulity...

You lose that bet. I know the number of years that I have been married. By doing the math I can calculate how old I was at the time and what year that happened. Otherwise, I would take a guess which might be off by a year or so. And I am not a person with an especially faulty memory. I just don't have a perfect memory for such things and neither do many other people. But you know what, my marriage happened even if I don't always remember my exact age at that time.

And make no mistake about it, the marriage to my wonderful wife is one of the most important events of my life. What isn't important to me is the ability to remember my exact age when it happened.

Hopefully, this will not come as any surprise, but people are different. All of us have a different capacity for memory. Some things I remember much better than others, mainly because they are more important to me. I imagine that there are a lot of people like you who remember how old they were when an important event in their life happened.

What can't be done is to lay any credible claim that Joseph Smith was a person, like you, who cared how old he was when any given event happened in his life. It is possible that he is more like me and cares about the central meaning of the event rather than the unimportant details that surround it. And since it is impossible to prove that Joseph Smith was detail oriented then the differences in the accounts in regards to his age prove nothing more than he wasn't consistent about how old he thought he was at the time.

 

[Ran77]

In whose universe would a visitation from God Almighty be considered a small detail?

That is twisting my words. I did not in any way state that a visitation from God is a small detail. Why not deal with what I actually meant?

In my mind, and possibly in Joseph's mind, how old he was when he received a visitation is unimportant. That is a detail about him. It is not a detail about God or the message that God gave to him. Those are important. The minutia of how old he was, or what clothes he was wearing at the time, or what he had for breakfast that moringing pale in comparison to the mighty event of receiving a vision from God.

 

[Moodshadow]

That is twisting my words. I did not in any way state that a visitation from God is a small detail. Why not deal with what I actually meant?

In my mind, and possibly in Joseph's mind, how old he was when he received a visitation is unimportant. That is a detail about him. It is not a detail about God or the message that God gave to him. Those are important. The minutia of how old he was, or what clothes he was wearing at the time, or what he had for breakfast that moringing pale in comparison to the mighty event of receiving a vision from God.

And yet the "mighty event" of the visitation and the message from God were somehow not sufficiently important to record in his own History of the Church?

 

[drstevej]

You lose that bet. I know the number of years that I have been married. By doing the math I can calculate how old I was at the time and what year that happened. Otherwise, I would take a guess which might be off by a year or so. And I am not a person with an especially faulty memory. I just don't have a perfect memory for such things and neither do many other people. But you know what, my marriage happened even if I don't always remember my exact age at that time.

And make no mistake about it, the marriage to my wonderful wife is one of the most important events of my life. What isn't important to me is the ability to remember my exact age when it happened.

Do you know your correct anniversary date?

 

[Ran77]

And yet the "mighty event" of the visitation and the message from God were somehow not sufficiently important to record in his own History of the Church?

Another twist. It was important enough to commit to scripture, and there it stands as Church history.


:o