Vaccinated are 13 times more likely to get covid than those with naturally acquired immunity

[hedrick]

The CDC themselves that also state that reinfection is rare and that the evidence suggest that some vaccine strength is waning here in the US, so who are we to believe?

There are lots of questions. But the one thing every study I’ve heard of agrees on, including the one in the OP, is that vaccination increases the immunity for people who have had Covid.

 

[hedrick]

I don't really like you trying to guess where I live. I do live in a Windsor in the United States - yes, but there are may Windsor's in the United States and I don't want you, or anyone else on this forum, knowing which one.

I suspect the reason people were trying to guess was so they could look up information on Covid policies there. Your statement seemed to be missing critical context.

 

[Lain Iwakura]

I suspect the reason people were trying to guess was so they could look up information on Covid policies there. Your statement seemed to be missing critical context.

What I've said is true. And with the context provided, it is possible to find COVID rules that meet the criteria I've layed out as it's probably true elsewhere too.

 

[Lain Iwakura]

Mea culpa, I forget myself sometimes.

No hard feelings. I'm just someone who needs to practice boundaries.

 

[Pommer]

There are lots of questions. But the one thing every study I’ve heard of agrees on, including the one in the OP, is that vaccination increases the immunity for people who have had Covid.

But vaccination doesn’t work perfectly so therefore we should be cautious and wait until we have a safe, (after YEARS of testing) , vaccine that hasn’t hurt puppies, and “the government” [booo, hisss] has proven that they don’t have any ulterior motives for getting nearly all of us injected with these potentially pathogenic substances!

You know, fear, the absence of faith.

Go figure!

 

[rambot]

Given the EXCEPTIONAL outlier status of Israels study, I'm curious as to why things went terribly there?

Simply put I haven't seen any data that comes EVEN CLOSE to Israel's numbers.


There's a conspiracy theory in there somewhere I'd bet

 

[stevil]

That's why I have to go with my own immune system on this one.

For your personal situation it isn't about whether natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity.

You currently have natural immunity.
Your choice going forward is whether or not to get immunised.

What a new study reveals about natural immunity—and why experts urge caution
The study also found that those who previously had Covid-19 saw more protection against reinfection from a single dose of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine compared to those who had had a prior infection and remained unvaccinated.

"Unvaccinated people who get infected are where we see the deaths occurring," Schooley said. "Putting yourself at risk of dying to have 'natural' immunity is not a great tradeoff."

"People who have been infected still get a benefit—for themselves and for society—by getting vaccinated, and one shot of a vaccine is sufficient to achieve that,"

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I know a huge family , that refused to social distance, wear mask. Get vaccinated. And fought for there rights to be stupid. One worked with order sick people. Of course they all have COVID-19. Yes , the young nurse and her family have a better chance of living , than her patients . But the young nurse is crying like a baby for her and her family . But no care about her patients.

 

[bekkilyn]

A sound bite reexamined: 'Pandemic of the unvaccinated'

(A disclaimer for those who will see the source as ABC news and for whatever ideological reasons are against anything that is posted from there, "fake news" etc., this is an AP Press article that is posted to numerous news sources of many different political, social, and religious and anti-religious ideologies.)

Some excerpts - highlights mine

---------- begin quote -----------
WASHINGTON -- This summer’s coronavirus resurgence has been labeled a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” by government officials from President Joe Biden on down.

The sound bite captures the glaring reality that unvaccinated people overwhelmingly account for new cases and serious infections, with a recent study of government data showing that hospitalization rates among unvaccinated adults were 17 times higher than among those fully vaccinated.

But the term doesn’t appear to be changing hearts and minds among unvaccinated people. And it doesn’t tell the whole story, with some breakthrough infections occurring among the fully vaccinated. That's led health officials to recommend a return to masks and a round of booster shots.

“It is true that the unvaccinated are the biggest driver, but we mustn't forget that the vaccinated are part of it as well, in part because of the delta variant,” said Dr. Eric Topol, professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research in La Jolla, California. “The pandemic clearly involves all people, not just the unvaccinated.”

Topol points to Louisiana, where data from the state suggest that nearly 10% of hospitalized patients are vaccinated.

Branding it “a pandemic of the unvaccinated” could have the unintended consequence of stigmatizing the unvaccinated, he added. “We should not partition them as the exclusive problem,” Topol said.

....


Calling it a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” is “just provocative,” said Robert Blendon, who follows public opinion on health care at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “The unvaccinated have an opposition toward Washington, and the more you stir the opposition, the more it convinces them 'I'm not going to give in to those people,'” Blendon said.

Yet top officials don't seem to be ready to let go of a favored catchphrase.

.......

Until very recently, Biden's handling of the pandemic was seen as a solid strength. But the August edition of the AP-NORC poll found flashing warnings for the president. Approval of his COVID-19 response fell by 12 percentage points from July, down from 66% to 54%. It was the lowest COVID-19 approval rating for Biden, and the first time that his approval number on the pandemic was basically the same as his overall performance rating.

Among independents, there was a nearly 30 percentage point drop in approval.

---------- end quote -------------
​

Seems like the false messaging that vaccinated people are "safe" and can thus disregard all precautions, and it's therefore only the unvaccinated "lepers" who can get sick and spread the virus or be in the hospital is beginning to backfire.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

But no care about her patients.

At this point the patients are likely all vaccinated anyway, right?

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

"The unvaccinated have an opposition toward Washington, and the more you stir the opposition, the more it convinces them 'I'm not going to give in to those people,'” Blendon said.

By Jove I think he’s got it!

 

[whatbogsends]

It’s like this:
Voice of reason: “We’d really like it and like you if you could do all of the rest of us a really, big, favor! We need each citizen to get themselves vaccinated (if you can, and if you have a medical condition that means that it would be unsafe for you to get a vaccination, we’re hoping that enough of us, 75%(?) or so can provide you, fellow citizen who is unable to benefit from this ‘wonder-science’, with ‘herd-immunity’.)”

Yeah I gotta thing, I can’t get vaccinated.

VOR: “Oh, that’s too bad, what do you suffer from?”

HIPAA VIOLATION! My body, my choice!

VOR: “No this isn’t about your ‘rights’, this is about…”

Don’t you tell me what to think!

Only like six months in.

The virus mutates too fast to reach herd immunity.

LONDON — Achieving herd immunity with Covid vaccines when the highly infectious delta variant is spreading is “not a possibility,” a leading epidemiologist said.

Experts agree on several reasons why such a goal — where overall immunity in a population is reached and the spread of the virus is stopped — is not likely.


Sir Andrew Pollard, head of the Oxford Vaccine Group, told British lawmakers Tuesday that as Covid vaccines did not stop the spread of the virus entirely — with vaccinated people still able to be infected and transmit the virus — the idea of achieving herd immunity was “mythical.”

“I think we are in a situation here with this current variant where herd immunity is not a possibility because it still infects vaccinated individuals,” said Pollard, one of the lead researchers in the creation of the AstraZeneca-University of Oxford vaccine.

Herd immunity is 'mythical' with the Covid delta variant, expert says (cnbc.com)

The concept of herd immunity has been offered up by health experts as a largely theoretical but important turning point in the COVID-19 pandemic. But hopes that the U.S. can achieve that critical mass of protection, whether by vaccination or natural infection, has started to wane, largely due to the Delta variant, says Mansoor Amiji, Northeastern University Distinguished Professor in the departments of pharmaceutical sciences and chemical engineering.

“In my opinion, the concept of herd immunity no longer exists,” Amiji says.

Early estimates in 2020 of what percentage of the population would need to be immune from infection to achieve herd immunity hovered between 70 and 80%. But that threshold has since risen, as more infectious variants began circulating.

Now that cases are rising across the country again because of the high transmissibility of the Delta variant, even with more than half of the U.S. population fully vaccinated, it’s time that health authorities rethink the pandemic “endgame,” says Neil Maniar, professor of the practice and director of the Master of Public Health in Urban Health program at Northeastern.

And that means throwing out herd immunity—which has helped inform the vaccine goal posts for cities and towns across the country—as a measure of progress, Maniar says.

“I don’t think herd immunity should be our focus anymore,” Maniar says. “We’re seeing now that even in a largely vaccinated population, you can still have spread, and that challenges one of the key goals of herd immunity.”
...
The virus is now “constantly changing,” so much so that it’s making herd immunity an unattainable goal, Amiji says.

It could be too late to stop the Delta variant–and to achieve ‘herd immunity’ from COVID-19. - News @ Northeastern


It was never a realistic outcome of this pandemic, yet people are still clinging to the false hope, and blaming the unvaccinated for the failure to reach an unattainable solution.

 

[rambot]

A sound bite reexamined: 'Pandemic of the unvaccinated'

(A disclaimer for those who will see the source as ABC news and for whatever ideological reasons are against anything that is posted from there, "fake news" etc., this is an AP Press article that is posted to numerous news sources of many different political, social, and religious and anti-religious ideologies.)

Some excerpts - highlights mine

---------- begin quote -----------
WASHINGTON -- This summer’s coronavirus resurgence has been labeled a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” by government officials from President Joe Biden on down.

The sound bite captures the glaring reality that unvaccinated people overwhelmingly account for new cases and serious infections, with a recent study of government data showing that hospitalization rates among unvaccinated adults were 17 times higher than among those fully vaccinated.

But the term doesn’t appear to be changing hearts and minds among unvaccinated people. And it doesn’t tell the whole story, with some breakthrough infections occurring among the fully vaccinated. That's led health officials to recommend a return to masks and a round of booster shots.

“It is true that the unvaccinated are the biggest driver, but we mustn't forget that the vaccinated are part of it as well, in part because of the delta variant,” said Dr. Eric Topol, professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research in La Jolla, California. “The pandemic clearly involves all people, not just the unvaccinated.”

Topol points to Louisiana, where data from the state suggest that nearly 10% of hospitalized patients are vaccinated.

Branding it “a pandemic of the unvaccinated” could have the unintended consequence of stigmatizing the unvaccinated, he added. “We should not partition them as the exclusive problem,” Topol said.

....


Calling it a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” is “just provocative,” said Robert Blendon, who follows public opinion on health care at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “The unvaccinated have an opposition toward Washington, and the more you stir the opposition, the more it convinces them 'I'm not going to give in to those people,'” Blendon said.

Yet top officials don't seem to be ready to let go of a favored catchphrase.

.......

Until very recently, Biden's handling of the pandemic was seen as a solid strength. But the August edition of the AP-NORC poll found flashing warnings for the president. Approval of his COVID-19 response fell by 12 percentage points from July, down from 66% to 54%. It was the lowest COVID-19 approval rating for Biden, and the first time that his approval number on the pandemic was basically the same as his overall performance rating.

Among independents, there was a nearly 30 percentage point drop in approval.

---------- end quote -------------
​

Seems like the false messaging that vaccinated people are "safe" and can thus disregard all precautions, and it's therefore only the unvaccinated "lepers" who can get sick and spread the virus or be in the hospital is beginning to backfire.

Interesting read. My take aways:
1) "Pandemic of the unvaccinated" is both inflammatory and true.
2) Your highlighting of "doesn't tell the whole story". Personally, I would have highlighted a couple sentences BEFORE that since it is more than an opinion and is a piece of DATA to sink your teeth into:
"...hospitalization rates among unvaccinated adults were 17 times higher than among those fully vaccinated."
3) The HIGHEST number they can find in one jurisdiction to support their point, is 10%? And the trade off is what?

I still haven't really understood why I would have to make up for the choices that individuals who, without medical reason, choose to remain unvaccinated. Conservatives are HUGE fans of personal responsibility (not syaing you are conservative). Contracting COVID is going to be an inevitability (in much the same way I know nobody over 20 who has never had the common flu); if you choose NOT to protect yourself, why is it on me?

Are we, as a society expected to wear masks, hygiene and distance in perpetuity?

 

[bekkilyn]

Interesting read. My take aways:
1) "Pandemic of the unvaccinated" is both inflammatory and true.
2) Your highlighting of "doesn't tell the whole story". Personally, I would have highlighted a couple sentences BEFORE that since it is more than an opinion and is a piece of DATA to sink your teeth into:
"...hospitalization rates among unvaccinated adults were 17 times higher than among those fully vaccinated."
3) The HIGHEST number they can find in one jurisdiction to support their point, is 10%.

I still haven't really understood why I would have to make up for the choices that individuals who, without medical reason, choose to remain unvaccinated. Conservatives are HUGE fans of personal responsibility (not syaing you are conservative). Contracting COVID is going to be an inevitability (in much the same way I know nobody over 20 who has never had the common flu); if you choose NOT to protect yourself, why is it on me?

Are we, as a society expected to wear masks, hygiene and distance in perpetuity?

I'm actually a "Bernie Bro" and therefore seemingly despised by both liberals and conservatives.

You don't want to wear an easily-reversible mask or practice good hygiene in perpetuity and yet you seemingly question why others do not want to inject foreign substances into their bodies in perpetuity?

"Only" 10% of a lot of people is still a lot of people, or are they considered to be acceptable sacrifices provided that the false message that vaccinated people are safe from getting and/or spreading the virus to others be allowed to continue without question and therefore also immune from any and all responsibility or responsible behavior?

 

[SacredHorseGhost]

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity:
reinfections versus breakthrough infections

Results:
SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk
for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously
infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and
February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic
disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination
(from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was
demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21)
increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a
greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were
previously infected.

Conclusions:
This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger
protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the
Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced
immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and
given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta
variant.

And unlike many of the pro-vaccine studies, the authors declared no conflicts of interest.

The authors declare they have no conflict of interest.
Funding: There was no external funding for the project.

This makes no sense and has no purpose except to mislead people into thinking getting sick with COVID is better because... ???

If you already had full blown COVID you probably aren't going to get it again in comparison to those exposed to bits of the virus in vaccines. So duhr, I ain't gonna get vaccinated to protect myself because if I get the virus I'll be protected from it???

If you get HIV its unlikely you will get HIV again. If you survive polio you are more likely not to get it than those vaccinated against it. What are you thinking?

 

[SacredHorseGhost]

The vaccinated people aren't truly vaccinated. They still get COVID and still spread COVID to others. You're no safer around the vaccinated any more than the unvaccinated. Your precautions are wise. *Anyone* regardless of vaccinated status could be carrying or spreading the virus, and yet we double-down on jabs rather than good hygiene and social distancing.

If nearly everyone got vaccinated it would find no home or person to transmit to sustainably. It can infect the vaccinated, but not at the same rate or level the unvaccinated.

I really don't understand the contempt for basic science.

 

[SacredHorseGhost]

Have you been getting boosters every 6 months for years?

An actual vaccine gives you *immunity* to a disease and actually prevents the spread of such disease.

The so-called COVID vaccine does neither. It's no true vaccination in spite of the false messaging of the powers-that-be.

No, a vaccine gives you a high chance at immunity. Vaccines only work for the population as a whole when received by those that can receive them. If you have a highly transmittable disease among a half vaccinated population that acts as if it isn't there anymore you get exactly what we have.

 

[JulieB67]

If nearly everyone got vaccinated it would find no home or person to transmit to sustainably. It can infect the vaccinated, but not at the same rate or level the unvaccinated.

But as we see with all the studies coming out of Israel which is one of the most vaccinated countries this is clearly not true.

 

[rambot]

I'm actually a "Bernie Bro" and therefore seemingly despised by both liberals and conservatives.

oh! Awesome. I'm a big Bernie fan.

You don't want to wear an easily-reversible mask or practice good hygiene in perpetuity and yet you seemingly question why others do not want to inject foreign substances into their bodies in perpetuity?

No, I don't want to wear a mask in perpetuity; nobody does. But good hygiene, I do.
mRNA isn't all that foreign. I mean, the "foreign substance" is injected into your body or is absorbed through droplets in the air from someone else's mouth or nose. The difference being the injection PROTECTS me and can protect YOU if you choose to take it, and is a statistically SAFE option while the other foreign substance can make us CRAZY sick

"Only" 10% of a lot of people is still a lot of people, or are they considered to be acceptable sacrifices provided that the false message that vaccinated people are safe from getting and/or spreading the virus to others be allowed to continue without question and therefore also immune from any and all responsibility or responsible behavior?

I SWEAR I will answer this question if you can help me out with one thing:

Can you find a vaccination OR medication of ANY KIND that has a 100% success rate?
Because you seem to be framing parts of your arguments as though anything less than 100% success rate is not worth one's time.
But that cannot be your argument because you continue to advocate for two of the most BARELY uesful practices in combatting COVID.

I think I'm just confused.

 

[rambot]

But as we see with all the studies coming out of Israel which is one of the most vaccinated countries this is clearly not true.

Statistical outliers are NOT good ideas to base policy on.

That only red dot is the "Israel" of COVID vaccination outcomes.

Have you found ANY other data sets ANYWHERE else in ANY other jurisdiction that match Israel's numbers? Because if not, you should abandon that position.