Using the Idiom "being Called" as a job offer idiom (for pastors)

[Pavel Mosko]

I noticed that in my former denomination (Wisconsin synod) this sort of thing happened all the time. This really grated on me after I left Lutheranism for the non denominational end of Charismatic movement, and then later Orthodoxy and the Eastern end of Christianity. For the most part I know this as a kind of mystical idiom whereby the person believes that 1) God "plan for their life" is to go into some kind of ministry, or 2) A realization that they should serve at a specific place (e.g. - Paul "feeling compelled" to go to Rome to preach even though he new it would lead to his imprisonment). Much of the "job offer" idiom end of it, I guess I can sort of see as a reverse form of the Greek Word "to send", but really I sort of see this largely as a symptom of the Cessionism and rationalistic outlook that certain Lutherans seem to adopt regarding anything other than the two Sacraments they observe. Anyway how normal is this in modern Lutheranism?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Anyway how normal is this in modern Lutheranism?

Why do you care if you're no longer Lutheran?

 

[Resha Caner]

You don't believe God calls people to fulfill a purpose?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Why do you care if you're no longer Lutheran?

Curiosity. I'm also at the age of life where I reminisce a bit and find that I actually enjoy talking to people from some of the traditions I've been with in the past.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You don't believe God calls people to fulfill a purpose?

I thought my OP was clear but maybe I need to edit it. I do believe that!

The OP is about using the phrase or word "calling" simply as a metaphor for a congregation offering a job to a perspective pastor.

 

[Albion]

I thought my OP was clear but maybe I need to edit it. I do believe that!

The OP is about using the phrase or word "calling" simply as a metaphor for a congregation offering a job to a perspective pastor.

Pavel, I like what you said here. It seems to say something different from what I thought I was reading in the OP.

While we do speak of God calling his people for one purpose or another, and I assume you do not deny that he has done this in history, the term as used for a congregation offering a pastoral position to an ordained minister is no more controversial than when a speaker at a public gathering says "I would now like to call Mr. Smith to the podium."

Lutherans, like the members of most other Christian families of faith, believe that the people of God are to have a role in choosing--or calling--pastors. Even my own church (Anglican) retains that important criterion even while we have retained bishops in Apostolic Succession. But there are indeed some other Christian denominations/communions which have shifted the responsibility totally over to some church leader.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

While we do speak of God calling his people for one purpose or another, and I assume you do not deny that he has done this in history, the term as used for a congregation offering a pastoral position to an ordained minister is no more controversial than when a speaker at a public gathering says "I would now like to call Mr. Smith to the podium."

Well that is why I did mention in the OP

I guess I can sort of see as a reverse form of the Greek Word "to send"

I can sort of see something like that.


The context of my question is over hearing a number of conversations especially between my parents. Where that word or phrase has only been used in the job offer sense and never in that other sense! And part of my issue is I get the feeling that some folks don't get the mystical idiom end of it, well at least my parents, my mother especially. And that sort of thing disturbs a bit because that sort of frame of mind is a bit alien to the Bible and the rest of earlier Christianity.

 

[FireDragon76]

I noticed that in my former denomination (Wisconsin synod) this sort of thing happened all the time. This really grated on me after I left Lutheranism for the non denominational end of Charismatic movement, and then later Orthodoxy and the Eastern end of Christianity. For the most part I know this as a kind of mystical idiom whereby the person believes that 1) God "plan for their life" is to go into some kind of ministry, or 2) A realization that they should serve at a specific place (e.g. - Paul "feeling compelled" to go to Rome to preach even though he new it would lead to his imprisonment). Much of the "job offer" idiom end of it, I guess I can sort of see as a reverse form of the Greek Word "to send", but really I sort of see this largely as a symptom of the Cessionism and rationalistic outlook that certain Lutherans seem to adopt regarding anything other than the two Sacraments they observe. Anyway how normal is this in modern Lutheranism?

It's part of our sacramental worldview. I go to an ELCA church, and the denomination is known by many for being "liberal", but folks at my church take calling of pastors seriously, it's not just rhetoric, we pray that God would call a pastor for us. I'm not sure what you mean by "rationalistic", that doesn't really describe my religion, I do not see Lutherans as cold rationalists, we accept that life is full of paradox and is often mysterious and beyond our capacity to rationalize. We aren't Pentecostal, necessarily, but I don't see Lutheranism as ideologically committed to cessationism, indeed, there are charismatic Lutherans in the world, such as the Mekane Yesu in Ethiopia and other churches in east Africa. And there is the rare charismatic-oriented congregation in the ELCA, as well, though not nearly as significant as in other churches such as the Episcopal Church.

Lutherans are not prone to talking alot about spiritual experiences, but that doesn't mean they are absent from our lives. Our previous vicar (associate pastor) once talked obliquely in a sermon about his own personal calling. He entered the ministry after he literally argued with God because God was telling him to be a pastor, when he was planning on being a marine biologist. So we take calling seriously and obviously, we are not "cessationists" even if we do not have wonderworking icons or many extraordinary claims of miracles.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's part of our sacramental worldview. I go to an ELCA church, and the denomination is known by many for being "liberal", but folks at my church take calling of pastors seriously, it's not just rhetoric, we pray that God would call a pastor for us. I'm not sure what you mean by "rationalistic", that doesn't really describe my religion, I do not see Lutherans as cold rationalists, we accept that life is full of paradox and is often mysterious and beyond our capacity to rationalize. We aren't Pentecostal, necessarily, but I don't see Lutheranism as ideologically committed to cessationism, indeed, there are charismatic Lutherans in the world, such as the Mekane Yesu in Ethiopia and other churches in east Africa. And there is the rare charismatic-oriented congregation in the ELCA, as well, though not nearly as significant as in other churches such as the Episcopal Church.

Lutherans are not prone to talking alot about spiritual experiences, but that doesn't mean they are absent from our lives. Our previous vicar (associate pastor) once talked obliquely in a sermon about his own personal calling. He entered the ministry after he literally argued with God because God was telling him to be a pastor, when he was planning on being a marine biologist. So we take calling seriously and obviously, we are not "cessationists" even if we do not have wonderworking icons or many extraordinary claims of miracles.

Nice bit of commentary!

I guess it would be interesting some day to hear Lutherans talk about "vocation" the same way I have heard Catholics talk on that topic from time to time.

In my past the Lutherans I knew and grew up with were pretty Cessationist.

 

[Resha Caner]

The OP is about using the phrase or word "calling" simply as a metaphor for a congregation offering a job to a perspective pastor.

Do people admit to using it as a metaphor, or is that your perception? I've not heard anyone in a leadership position in the LCMS say it's just a metaphor. I wouldn't think the Wisconsin would hold that view either.

It wouldn't surprise me if some laity have that view, but then that is their misconception, of which the laity have many.

 

[Resha Caner]

I guess it would be interesting some day to hear Lutherans talk about "vocation" the same way I have heard Catholics talk on that topic from time to time.

I would like to see that as well, but it's a difficult line to walk.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do people admit to using it as a metaphor, or is that your perception?

Well I seem to remember bringing it up at least once with my mom at the dinner table when the job offer version was used, and mentioned the other one and my other view (about it being more mystical about ones purpose in life as far as ministry goes), and she seemed quizzical like she didn't quite know what I was talking about.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well I seem to remember bringing it up at least once with my mom at the dinner table when the job offer version was used, and mentioned the other one and my other view (about it being more mystical about ones purpose in life as far as ministry goes), and she seemed quizzical like she didn't quite know what I was talking about.

I see. For historical reasons, I'm not sure I like the term "mystical", but as best I know the LCMS views it as a true calling from God. With that said, the LCMS also emphasizes there are 2 calls. The first is a call from God to serve. The second is a specific call to a specific congregation.

It's an important distinction. I had a friend in an evangelical congregation that was having problems because a husband/wife team was claiming God had called them, and therefore the congregation was responsible for financially supporting them. In the LCMS view, it could well be true God had called them, but if the congregation doesn't affirm the call, it would mean they weren't called to that specific job.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm not sure I like the term "mystical"

Well we could use the more generic term of "spiritual", but I believe mystical is better, it is derived from "mysterion", the Greek word for sacrament. But it is appropriate because the Latin word of sacrament is where we get the word "Sacred" from and I think sacred does imply since this is something that should be discerned with reverence and so on.

With that said, the LCMS also emphasizes there are 2 calls. The first is a call from God to serve. The second is a specific call to a specific congregation.

Good!

It's an important distinction.

And that's kind of my issue, it's the saying about "the Road Less Traveled". An offer that is the best one as far as the surface facts goes, may not be the choice that God wants you to take!

Take Care.