US to force gay diplomats to marry

joshua 1 9

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Nope. I'm just saying what I would do. I believe homosexual behavior is a sin. I believe I have no right to tell anyone to whom they cannot be married. So my solution works for me, because it follows my religious and ethical standards.
Then you should be a rich person if you have no issue with selling people what they want. I have very strict standards in that regard. I would never want to work in a convince store because most everything they sell is harmful to people in some way. Although things are improving and there is a trend toward more healthy food. My son is considering a job in engineering at Smuckers to build machines to make new products. It is between that and something in the medical field where he would actually be able to save lives. So it maybe possible to find jobs were we actually help people rather then to hinder them in someway.
 
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pat34lee

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What are the qualifying marks of civilisation, in your view?

Because dismissing every other country in the world as "not civilised" comes across as pretty parochial and narrow, to me.

Not -every- country, just 80-90% of them. And the liberals
are trying their best to make us one of them, just as they
have been doing in Europe since the 70's.
 
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The Barbarian

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Then you should be a rich person if you have no issue with selling people what they want.

You think it's a bad idea to sell cakes to people?

I have very strict standards in that regard.

Apparently so.
 
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pat34lee

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You didn't answer the question, pat. What are the qualifying marks of civilisation, in your view?

First and most important: Walmart.
2. Fast food within walking distance.
No? well...

Places of worship available to all without being forced on the people.
Being able to live without government involvement in our day to day lives.
Being able to choose who represents us, locally to nationally.
Being able to fire those who fail to represent us. (At least theoretically.)
The second amendment, Castle doctrine and stand your ground.
The right to work without paying a union for the privilege.
The right to our own bodies if we don't trust vaccines and prescription drugs.
The right to hold and espouse unpopular opinions.

Many items I would have put on the list once, either are gone or are
disappearing quickly, like the ability to choose what we eat, by having
GMO's labelled, if not outlawed. Score 1 for Europe there.
 
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Paidiske

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So basically, you think civilisation boils down to a particularly American constitutional framework?

That's a shame. It shows a peculiar disdain for the diversity of the world and its rich linguistic, artistic, philosophical and cultural achievements to not consider that as "civilisation."
 
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joshua 1 9

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You think it's a bad idea to sell cakes to people?
I think everyone has rights that need to be defended. The cake baker has rights and the gay couple has rights. Even convicted criminals have rights in this country. God is a God of absolute Justice and the scales of Justice need to always be balanced. Everything in all of the Universe has to maintain a state of perfect balance.

In a 7-2 decision, the justices set aside a Colorado court ruling against the baker -- while stopping short of deciding the broader issue of whether a business can refuse to serve gay and lesbian people. Supreme Court sides with Colorado baker who refused to make wedding cake for same-sex couple

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pat34lee

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So basically, you think civilisation boils down to a particularly American constitutional framework?

That's a shame. It shows a peculiar disdain for the diversity of the world and its rich linguistic, artistic, philosophical and cultural achievements to not consider that as "civilisation."

Diversity for the sake of diversity is just a fear of applying civilized
standards to other people. And it's not just the Constitution but
the Judeo-Christian framework that our culture and laws were
built around. No other culture has ever had the freedom we have.

What achievements do you think mark 'civilized' cultures?
 
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SolomonVII

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Diversity for the sake of diversity is just a fear of applying civilized
standards to other people. And it's not just the Constitution but
the Judeo-Christian framework that our culture and laws were
built around. No other culture has ever had the freedom we have.

What achievements do you think mark 'civilized' cultures?
Japan is a nation that rejects diversity. It is arguably one of the more 'civilized' nations in the world today, in terms of values that are worthwhile such as freedom and a strong work ethic and treating each other with dignity.
Japan could be argued to not really be founded in Judeo-Christian framework. However, after the Meiji restoration it did adopt Western methods in its restoration of Imperial Japanese rule. Of course, like so many non-Western countries, what had the strongest initial appeal to Japanese rulers was applying Western technology and rational social and busines organizational methods to autocratic and authoritarian models of government, much like fascism and communism leaders of the West adopted. It is a decidedly non-Christian framework, in terms of the model of individual freedom, and the humanity of the 'least of my brother' ideals that is at the heart of societies that consciously base themselves on Judeo-Christian principles. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan based their societies on a raw and unmitigated will to power, and outside of Communism, there has never been societies that have been so barbaric to their core as those ones were.

Of course, with the defeat of fascism, Japan has in fact adopted the framework of not just the West and scientific method and technology, but now also of freedom, the freedom of a redeemed people even, as St Paul describes the world after the Cross. They have not adopted the belief system of Christians or Jews. They have however adopted the fruits.

And that is what makes Japan so civilized, not that it is Christian, because it is not, but it has adopted a framework that had made Christians of the West so free too.

It could be argued that countries like Nazi Germany and other autocratic governments were advanced, but they were never 'civilized', when civilized is used to denote something positive. The same could be said for many of the countries of the world today too. Mega cities and tremendous wealth generation and now the attempted restoration of Chinese traditions in mainline China makes that country increasingly advanced. It could possibly even surpass the technology of America in the near future, if Americans continue to base their educations on identities and quotas rather than on merit (see Heather Macdonald for reference). Yet can any country that is run by a fascist government be said to be 'civilized', in any positive sense of the word?

Certainly many of the advanced cultures and religions of the world have much to offer, and it is an attribute of Western modern curiosity that we tend to absorb what is best from other cultures like sponges. And as the world becomes more advanced and civilized, the obverse must be also true also. They sponge up American Judeo-Christian values and advance accordingly.
The adjective 'civilized' is always advancing too. The goalpost always keep getting moved further, and further down the field. What would be considered the acme of civilization in the Golden Era of Islamic civilization would be comparably barbaric today. The same is true with the marvelous civilizations of China of bygone centuries.
It has nothing to do with 'diversity'. It has everything to do with advancing the freedom and humanity and effectiveness of any society by adopting the best ideas that are available to all of us.

It shouldn't be hard for any of us to believe that Christianity has born the best fruits. Christians have had the best teacher possible in Jesus, aka God.
 
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The Barbarian

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Diversity for the sake of diversity is just a fear of applying civilized standards to other people.

That's what Himmler said. But opposing diversity is a failure to be civilized. Hitler mocked the "mongrel American nation." How did that work out for him?

And it's not just the Constitution but the Judeo-Christian framework that our culture and laws were built around.

Not according to our Founders. They made very sure that no religion would be given preference.

No other culture has ever had the freedom we have.

Every hunter-gatherer culture was more free than ours. Civilizations are intrinsically less free than egalitarian societies.

What achievements do you think mark 'civilized' cultures?

Food surpluses, agriculture, inequality. Wars. Technological advancement. Stuff like that.
 
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The Barbarian

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I think everyone has rights that need to be defended. The cake baker has rights and the gay couple has rights.

Yep. A baker can't refuse service to gays, but he can refuse to support their views. Which is why my solution works.
 
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Paidiske

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Diversity for the sake of diversity is just a fear of applying civilized
standards to other people.

That sounds suspiciously as if you think that everyone else is lesser than you. I'm struggling to believe that that's what you actually believe?

What achievements do you think mark 'civilized' cultures?

An ethical social framework, with particular reference to care for the vulnerable. An educational system which equips people to fulfill their potential. Linguistic and artistic achievement (literary, performing arts, visual arts etc). An absence of consumerism as a way of life.

That'd do to start with.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Yep. A baker can't refuse service to gays, but he can refuse to support their views. Which is why my solution works.
It may work for you. But it does not seem to be the solution for the Baker who took his case all the way to the Supreme Court. From what I understand he can not refuse to sell them a cake, but he can refuse to sell them a personalized cake.

Lately there has been a tread to refuse service to Trump administration people. This most likely is a violation of their civil rights. Most of these laws are written to be so general so that the Judge can apply it any way they want.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hitler mocked the "mongrel American nation."
The Mongolians are the biggest common ancestor family on earth with 16 million descendants. Only descendants of Genghis Khan received land to grow food to feed themselves and their family. I come from a family with at least a million people alive today with a common ancestor.

There are people in China today that are descendants of both Genghis Khan and the Empire from the Forbidden city in Bejing. About 90% of Chinese are descended from the Han family. Even now they usually only marry outside of their culture if it is a second marriage. Although it is fashionable to date around a bit. Esp in more progressive cities like Shanghai. Still they are very traditional.
 
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The Barbarian

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It may work for you. But it does not seem to be the solution for the Baker who took his case all the way to the Supreme Court. From what I understand he can not refuse to sell them a cake, but he can refuse to sell them a personalized cake.

Actually, that was my solution, too. But mine didn't discriminate, and is therefore legal. The court never addressed that issue.

Lately there has been a tread to refuse service to Trump administration people.

Funny how discrimination doesn't bother some people until it happens to them, hum?

This most likely is a violation of their civil rights.

Authoritarians never seem to get this. If the government allows abuse of some people, it can allow the abuse of anyone.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The court never addressed that issue.
If they did not address that issue then they let the decision of the early court stand. You can not refuse service and discriminate. More recently it is the democrats that want to refuse service to the conservatives. This is the kind of hypocrisy I have problems with. We have to set one standard for everyone to follow. Otherwise we do not know what the law is and they can arrest anyone at anytime for anything. This is what happens when people do not have constitutional rights. Clarence Thomas and Kavanaugh are under no obligation to incriminate themselves. They do not have to admit guilt. The idea that you could impeach them is absurd. You would need a 2/3 majority. Just like if they want to change the constitution they would need a 2/3 majority vote.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Funny how discrimination doesn't bother some people until it happens to them, hum?
My wife tells me not to let it bother me. I had an issue with that in Hong Kong, we would be waiting for a bus and a driver would not stop to pick us up and we would have to wait for the next bus. It was usually only a 10 minute wait and she did not see any reason to get upset.
 
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The Barbarian

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If they did not address that issue then they let the decision of the early court stand

No. They did not rule on the question of discrimination, but rather on claims that the official was biased.

You can not refuse service and discriminate.

Which is why my solution works perfectly. I'm treating everyone the same.

More recently it is the democrats that want to refuse service to the conservatives.

(Barbarian checks)

Nope. Their position is that everyone is entitled to service. Perhaps there are some Christians out there who do think it's alright to abuse homosexuals, but they hardly represent us generally. Same applies to democrats. Republicans would probably try that argument, though.

This is the kind of hypocrisy I have problems with. We have to set one standard for everyone to follow.

This is what happens when people do not have constitutional rights. Clarence Thomas and Kavanaugh are under no obligation to incriminate themselves.

A job interview is not a trial. And when as in the case of Kavanaugh, there was abundant evidence of excessive drinking and sexual misbehavior, it's appropriate to ask about it.

They do not have to admit guilt.

He didn't. However, the facts brought forth and his testimony and the testimony of others did not convince most Americans that he was telling the truth.
 
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joshua 1 9

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He didn't. However, the facts brought forth and his testimony and the testimony of others did not convince most Americans that he was telling the truth.
He did not convince me at all, I was more convinced by her testimony. But the democrats never insisted on him taking a lie detector test. He offered to take one. So they pretty well messed it up for themselves. If he was guilty I am sure it would have come out on the test. Dr Ford took the test and they even paid for it themselves.

I do not know that a FBI investigation is much use for anything. Trump seems to have pretty good control over the FBI sense he fired Comely. The report most likely came back that everyone followed Kavanaugh instructions not to incriminate themselves and to say nothing.
 
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