US gun laws – particularly with “open carry”

Frogster

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:thumbsup:

The old refrain "God is the same yesterday, today and forever" is often used and that's a true statement. However, while God has not changed, His covenant with us has changed. Drastically.

The use of lethal force for "self-defense" is not so clear under the New Covenant. I'm pretty convinced there is not a single directive scripture to support that position. Otherwise, one certainly would have been posted by now.

:cool:

Where does the new cov say I can't shoot a person about to kill my son?

Some could argue that he writes his laws on our hearts, what laws?
 
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Frogster

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your right ,we "can" seek a doctor ...of course an even better course of action is to seek God and the right thing to do is seek God FIRST ... and the lord may say ..go see a doctor ,or he may say go see your elders ..or he may say whatever is his perfect will for that situation and he may say it in a myriad of differing ways to differing people.

and so it is with anything in our lives .. seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness ....

just add, He may say get a gun.:thumbsup:
 
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probinson

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Where does the new cov say I can't shoot a person about to kill my son?

Where does the new covenant say that you should?

The new covenant talks far more about turning the other cheek, about recognizing that vengeance is the Lord's, about not repaying evil with evil. Those are all directive scriptures, by the way.

:cool:
 
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Frogster

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What exactly would you say is the difference between LIVING by the sword and using the sword to defend your life?

:cool:

Stephaine made a good point, if one has a lifestyle of fighting, "live" by the sword everyday, sure,sooner or later he may get killed, but to take that verse now, and say a man has to watch his family get attacked, and not use lethal force to stop it, is a stretch.
 
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Frogster

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Where does the new covenant say that you should?

The new covenant talks far more about turning the other cheek, about recognizing that vengeance is the Lord's, about not repaying evil with evil. Those are all directive scriptures, by the way.

:cool:

Does it say I can't? Abraham had the gospel way back, and he killed.

What directives are written on our hearts?
 
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probinson

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Stephaine made a good point, if one has a lifestyle of fighting, "live" by the sword everyday, sure,sooner or later he may get killed, but to take that verse now, and say a man has to watch his family get attacked, and not use lethal force to stop it, is a stretch.

But Peter DID NOT have any history of fighting and certainly not a lifestyle of fighting or "living by the sword" as you are defining it and that is who Jesus was talking to.

:cool:
 
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Frogster

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Not really. The only point you proved is that the word "example" appears in scripture multiple times. But I already knew that.

:cool:

Where there is no law, there is no transgression, rom 4:15, so show me the law that says I can't?

I await.
 
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Frogster

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But Peter DID NOT have any history of fighting and certainly not a lifestyle of fighting or "living by the sword" as you are defining it and that is who Jesus was talking to.

:cool:

But He said it? Peter was out fishing, those guys used to argue fishing turf, you don't really know pre conversion Peter much, do ya?
 
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jiminpa

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Actually, our policy at work has done a remarkable job of creating problem solvers instead of fault finders. You don't have to have THE solution for a problem. You have to have A solution for a problem, and it doesn't even have to be a full, comprehensive solution. It causes a paradigm shift in the way people think when implemented properly. IOW, instead of just picking something apart and pointing out everything that's wrong, that won't work, etc. (which anyone can very easily do), we're looking for people who look beyond the problems to figure out ways to actually address the issues as opposed to just complaining about them.

If someone constantly points out faults but never has any solutions, then even though I have no MBA to speak of, I would tend to agree that such people are whiners.



But we've already talked about how there are varying interpretations of that second amendment. For example, you adamantly believe that the second amendment is first for protection from the government, but it doesn't say that anywhere in the text. The text of the second amendment simply says;
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
It says absolutely nothing about being instituted for protection from the government, and in fact it's actually referring to a well regulated Milita. It amazes me how people will fight for a literal interpretation of the phrase "shall not be infringed" yet have no problem adding to it that it's for protection from the government.

Now you've explained why you believe this amendment was written for protection from the government which may well be accurate, but in doing so, you've moved from the literal reading that you say you want to an interpretation of the founding father's intent. You can't have it both ways.

Personally, I don't for one minute think that the founding father's wrote the second amendment so that we would just hand out guns willy nilly to anyone who had enough money to purchase one. As the amendment reads, they thought the right to bear arms was necessary to the security of a free state. When someone uses those guns to threaten the security of a free state, then their "right" no longer exists. But there is no way to even attempt to ascertain what someone intends to do with those guns if there are absolutely no controls in place.

:cool:
Just like there are those in Christianity trying to claim that "will cease" means "have already ceased." The only interpretation problem with "shall not be infringed" comes from those who want to find a way to do the infringing.

And I still think you company is myopic in their approach. I have identified problems where I didn't have the first idea on an approach. I still wanted the problem solved. Fortunately, so did my managers who sometimes didn't have a good starting point either, but they at least knew who might. I can think of at least once that that person didn't know either and had to point me in a different direction. Some of those issues took some effort on my part to even find the right people to start to investigate the cause and solution. By reasoning you have presented, I should have just let it "burn" until the right people saw the "fire."
 
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probinson

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But He said it? Peter was out fishing, those guys used to argue fishing turf, you don't really know pre conversion Peter much, do ya?

The Truth is, there is one recorded instance of Peter drawing His sword and Jesus admonished him saying that those who draw the sword will die by the sword. Here is the relevant scripture;
Matthew 26:51-52 (KJV)

And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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give me the negative restraint "directive" that says I can't use lethal force to some jerk does not kill my son.

I've already posted the scriptures that I believe support my position multiple times in this thread.

I find it amusing that since you can find no directive scriptures supporting your position, you try to shift the burden to me. Well played. Logically fallacious, but well played.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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Just like there are those in Christianity trying to claim that "will cease" means "have already ceased." The only interpretation problem with "shall not be infringed" comes from those who want to find a way to do the infringing.

This doesn't address anything I said regarding interpretation of the full text of the amendment and the things you have added to the second amendment that is not found in a literal reading of the text.

And now we've come full circle back to "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand?"

:cool:
 
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jiminpa

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And now we've come full circle back to "What part of 'shall not be infringed' don't you understand?"

:cool:
Right. What part of that is unclear and open to interpretation? "Shall not be infringed" is about as explicit as one can get. The only vaguery is that which is being artificially inserted by those who wish it said something other than what it does.

The context is that since the government needs to itself be armed it is prohibited from disarming the populace to any extent. It's really not difficult or vague. The larger context of the Constitution gives specific instructions on the only circumstances by which the government can suspend any right and only for the specific individual for the time specified if the criterion is met, and the majority of your position fails to meet that criterion. You know, due process, trial and conviction by jury.
 
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