US Federal Law, The Fetus/Embryo Is A Human Being.

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Douglas Hendrickson

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I referred to the "roughly 100 trillion cells" that comprise a human being body.
Therefore, whether one or 100 trillion they are all human beings.

Which is about the funniest thing imaginable!

That a human beings body consists of a hundred trillion human beings, now that IS totally totally ridiculous.

Even the most rabid "pro-life" spewings have probably never hit that height of ridiculousness before!
 
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SPF

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I referred to the "roughly 100 trillion cells" that comprise a human being body.


Which is about the funniest thing imaginable!

That a human beings body consists of a hundred trillion human beings, now that IS totally totally ridiculous.

Even the most rabid "pro-life" spewings have probably never hit that height of ridiculousness before!
The funniest thing of all is not that you’re sarcastically responding to what he literally said instead of graciously responding to what we all know he meant; but that you probably actually think he meant that and you think you’re scoring some kind of point.

Douglas, last chance - can you provide any sources to support your views? I’ve given you dozens upon dozens.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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The funniest thing of all is not that you’re sarcastically responding to what he literally said instead of graciously responding to what we all know he meant; but that you probably actually think he meant that and you think you’re scoring some kind of point.
HOLY COW that is stupid: "what we all know he meant"
(How could I be gracious if what you last said is correct? Should I simply say "I don't agree with this," when it's OBVIOUSLY SO RIDICULOUS?)

I am certainly not going to try to figure out that he actually meant something sensible, for I am pretty sure that is pretty unlikely.

I mean really, he seems to even yet think that a single cell can be a human being!
 
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SPF

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I mean really, he seems to even yet think that a single cell can be a human being!
Indeed, humans begin their existence for a few hours as one cell. We’ve already established that the number of cells a human has does not determine its beingness.

Again, case in point would be that a 5 month preemie that can’t breathe without machine support has less cells than a 9 month fetus.

Can you please move on from that fallacious like of reasoning? I’ve already provided credible resources that explain how a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. If you disagree, please provide credible resources for us to review. Your pink text does not count as a credible resource.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Therefore, whether one or 100 trillion they are all human beings.

So if WE ALL KNOW WHAT THIS MEANT, what did it mean?
What was I supposed to have figured out in order to be "generous?

How can it be fixed to mean something sensible?
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Indeed, humans begin their existence for a few hours as one cell. We’ve already established that the number of cells a human has does not determine its beingness.

Again, case in point would be that a 5 month preemie that can’t breathe without machine support has less cells than a 9 month fetus.

Can you please move on from that fallacious like of reasoning? I’ve already provided credible resources that explain how a new human being comes into existence at fertilization. If you disagree, please provide credible resources for us to review. Your pink text does not count as a credible resource.
This is far wrong.

I do not use any pink text.

For emphasis sometimes I use a divine red, a magenta. Far from pink.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Both cells and organisms are alive, yet organisms exhibit unique characteristics that can reliably distinguish them from mere cells.[2]

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.” (Merriam-Webster) This definition stresses the interaction of parts in the context of a coordinated whole as the distinguishing feature of an organism. Organisms are “living beings.” Therefore, another name for a human organism is a “human being”; an entity that is a complete human, rather than a part of a human.

Human beings can be distinguished from human cells using the same kind of criteria scientists use to distinguish different cell types. A human being (i.e., a human organism) is composed of human parts (cells, proteins, RNA, DNA), yet it is different from a mere collection of cells because it has the characteristic molecular composition and behavior of an organism: it acts in an interdependent and coordinated manner to “carry on the activities of life.”

Human embryos from the one-cell (zygote) stage forward show uniquely integrated, organismal behavior that is unlike the behavior of mere human cells. The zygote produces increasingly complex tissues, structures and organs that work together in a coordinated way. Importantly, the cells, tissues and organs produced during development do not somehow “generate” the embryo (as if there were some unseen, mysterious “manufacturer” directing this process), they are produced by the embryo as it directs its own development to more mature stages of human life. This organized, coordinated behavior of the embryo is the defining characteristic of a human organism.


In contrast to human embryos, human cells are alive and, under some circumstances, they can assemble into primitive tissues and structures. Yet under no circumstances do mere human cells produce the kind of coordinated interactions necessary for building a fully integrated human body. They do not produce tissues in a coherent manner and do not organize them so as to sustain the life of the entity as a whole. They produce tumors; i.e., parts of the human body in a chaotic, disorganized manner. They behave like cells, not like organisms.

The first half sentence of this total quote is correct, but rather contradicted later on when it is stated: "In contrast to human embryos, human cells are alive ... ." When of course the embryos being considered here are also alive, but unfortunately they are considered to be organisms from the beginning, which is not true.

The definition of "organism" given here from Merriam-Webster is a rather poor one compared with other dictionaries, but even it correctly points out than an organism consists of organs.
This is where it shows that the early embryo is NOT an organism - there are NO ORGANS PRESENT IN THE EARLY EMBRYO. Furthermore, any and all embryos do not have usable organs, so they are not able to "carry on the activities of life by means of organs," like the definition requires.
So it does NOT have the claimed: "characteristic molecular composition and behavior of an organism..." since that composition and behavior requires organs.

Also it is a stretch, a stretch too far, to claim the embryo "directs its own development." It is the genetic component in every cell that determines how the development will be. THERE IS NEVER IN THE WOMB ANYTHING LIKE THE REAL DIRECTION OF REAL HUMAN ACTIVITIES OF REAL PEOPLE WITH REAL BRAINS. It is pretended that is the case, but it is not so. And there is even the claim that: "the cells, tissues and organs produced during development do not somehow “generate” the embryo (as if there were some unseen, mysterious “manufacturer” directing this process)." But is that not pretty well what is the case, that the genes do the directing and how they do it is certainly unseen and pretty much mysterious? Though nobody thinks of them as "manufacturers" as the good doctor suggests in a "STRAWMAN" fashion.
So whatever organized, coordinated growth there is in the embryo is incorrectly called "behavior," (as though there were choices involved, and a chooser or director that is the embryo itself.)
The embryo is NOT that sort of thing, is not using organs for anything, and certainly cannot be the organism a human being is.

She, the author, speaks of "mere human cells." Well guess what, everything human is human cells, even everything growing in a womb. The claim is that :
"under no circumstances do mere human cells produce the kind of coordinated interactions necessary for building a fully integrated human body. They do not produce tissues in a coherent manner and do not organize them so as to sustain the life of the entity as a whole."
Well, that might be true if we forgot that every cell contains the genetic blueprint that determines how everything goes. So IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REAL HUMAN CELLS, then what she says "mere cells" do not do, is precisely what they do do.
But it is not as though they are agents of behavior (like she falsely suggests about the embryo); there is nothing but human cells, "mere" human cells if one prefers to denigrate them, that constitute the entirety of whatever tissue there is. But unfortunately for her case, there is no organism activity without there being even any organs.

Just "pro-life" slight of hand - blatant and not so blatant falsity.
 
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Eloy Craft

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I'm not being any kind of pro-abortion. I am only pointing to truths of fetal life.
Not according to science. Science recognizes life is a continuum. It classifies a human zygote as...well human. I talked to a doctor who thought about it like you do. He told me the zygote is a parasite. I said nooo. it may be parasitic but it's a human. He is an abortion doctor
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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What is it being if not human?
Recognizing it is "human" is fine.
("Human" is mostly used as an adjective.)

Just don't confuse that with being a human being.
A cancer in a human being is also human!

"IT" is existing ("being") as human flesh, just like your arm or anything else COMPOSED OF HUMAN CELLS.
There are on the one hand human cells, what is "human," and on the other "a human, A HUMAN being," in other words a person. NOT TO BE CONFUSED !
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Not according to science. Science recognizes life is a continuum. It classifies a human zygote as...well human. I talked to a doctor who thought about it like you do. He told me the zygote is a parasite. I said nooo. it may be parasitic but it's a human. He is an abortion doctor

A human zygote, yes.

But NOT a human being. BIG DIFFERENCE.
 
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SPF

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When of course the embryos being considered here are also alive, but unfortunately they are considered to be organisms from the beginning, which is not true.
This is incorrect. You'll need to support this assertion beyond your own opinion. As of now it's a refutation of accepted science. Here is some material for you on the subject:

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.” F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi

The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.” Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.” James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

The above, and as far as I have researched, 100% of all credible, educated, and scientific minds that research this subject disagree with you. From what I can see of your post, basically you're just looking at science as we know it, shrugging your shoulders, and then going, "Well, I disagree with them, thus they're all wrong" I haven't seen you support your assertions other than your attempt at changing and manipulating definitions and performing wordsmith magic, taking hyper-literal definitions to try and somehow make sense of something or use one specific narrow definition when another actually applies in the context. I mean, if you have to try so hard to make a point, maybe you should stop and question whether or not you might actually be mistaken. Especially when it's you against the entire scientific, medical, and theological universe.


THERE IS NEVER IN THE WOMB ANYTHING LIKE THE REAL DIRECTION OF REAL HUMAN ACTIVITIES OF REAL PEOPLE WITH REAL BRAINS.
I like that you actually put this in both caps and pink. I like it because this is a perfect example of what "begging the question" looks like. The only way that you can state that there is "never" in the womb anything like "real human activities" of "real people" is if you assume beforehand that the unborn are not humans. And that of course, is begging the question, because what you're attempting to establish is that what is in the womb is not a human being. But you have to do that first, before making claims like this. Thus, begging the question.

"under no circumstances do mere human cells produce the kind of coordinated interactions necessary for building a fully integrated human body. They do not produce tissues in a coherent manner and do not organize them so as to sustain the life of the entity as a whole."
Well, that might be true if we forgot that every cell contains the genetic blueprint that determines how everything goes. So IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REAL HUMAN CELLS, then what she says "mere cells" do not do, is precisely what they do do.
You're still continuing to not understand that there is indeed a difference between cell types. "What is the nature of the new cell that comes into existence upon sperm-egg fusion? Most importantly, is the zygote merely another human cell (like a liver cell or a skin cell) or is it something else? Just as science distinguishes between different types of cells, it also makes clear distinctions between cells and organisms. Both cells and organisms are alive, yet organisms exhibit unique characteristics that can reliably distinguish them from mere cells.[2]
"

For some reason that I can only interpret at this point to be mere stubbornness, you refuse to acknowledge this universally accepted difference.

Just "pro-life" slight of hand - blatant and not so blatant falsity.
You've done this a number of times, and it is an ad-hominem, and I would encourage you to stop. Arguments stand or fall based upon their own merits, not the beliefs of the person presenting them. This statement, and other statements like it are attempts to dismiss out of hand what a person says based upon a belief they hold. This is fallacious and has no place in discussion.

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception."
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception."

Well he recognizes ANY HUMAN CELLS IN THE WOMB ARE ALIVE.

That is all that is saying, at least all it is saying that is TRUE.
He is (was) not about to say what is in the womb is NOT alive, of course.

THE FETUS (or whatever is in the womb) is usually alive. BIG HAIRY DEAL.
There is life there - big hairy deal. (Of course he also recognizes "life" the life of a human being, comes all the way from conception.)
ACTUALLY IT IS PRESENT IN THE SPERM AND OVUM TOO OF COURSE.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson said:
Just "pro-life" slight of hand - blatant and not so blatant falsity.

THIS WAS THE SUMMARY OF A SOMEWHAT LENGTHY DISPOSITION.
So in response you say,
You've done this a number of times, and it is an ad-hominem, and I would encourage you to stop. Arguments stand or fall based upon their own merits, not the beliefs of the person presenting them. This statement, and other statements like it are attempts to dismiss out of hand what a person says based upon a belief they hold. This is fallacious and has no place in discussion.
This is totally ridiculous. I had already in detail precisely pointed to how the "Dr. Condic" statements FELL "on their own merits" (lack of merit, of course!)

Your grasping at straws and personal attacks are not becoming.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson said:
"THERE IS NEVER IN THE WOMB ANYTHING LIKE THE REAL DIRECTION OF REAL HUMAN ACTIVITIES OF REAL PEOPLE WITH REAL BRAINS."


Can you in any way demonstrate there is anything false in this statement?
If you cannot,
stop with the claiming I should appeal to some AUTHORITY, which is your logical fallacy way of arguing.
 
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Eloy Craft

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cancer in a human being is also human!
a cancer is not being a human individual. Like You and me. Were you once a cancer cell? Will a cancer cell determine it's own growth? if it could what will that cancer grow to be? Your conclusion is philosophically naive.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Douglas Hendrickson said:
"THERE IS NEVER IN THE WOMB ANYTHING LIKE THE REAL DIRECTION OF REAL HUMAN ACTIVITIES OF REAL PEOPLE WITH REAL BRAINS."


Can you in any way demonstrate there is anything false in this statement?
If you cannot,
stop with the claiming I should appeal to some AUTHORITY, which is your logical fallacy way of arguing.
exchange the word womb with a hospital room with a car accident victim in it who is in a vegatative state. Therein lies your fallacy.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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a cancer is not being a human individual. Like You and me. Were you once a cancer cell? Will a cancer cell determine it's own growth? if it could what will that cancer grow to be? Your conclusion is philosophically naive.
Come on!

I never say a cancer is a being an human individual.

So respond to what I actually say, not some imaginings.
 
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