US declares Jerusalem Capital of Israel -- what will happen next?

[pat34lee]

"The US gave the occupation what it does not deserve."

Israel is no more an occupation force than any other
nation inside it's own borders. The only illegal people
there are the Arabs who refuse to become part of the
state of Israel.

 

[Yekcidmij]

No,

So we agree then. A nation state does not have a right to do whatever it wants within it's own borders. We agree on at least one instance, extreme as it is, where a nation should not be allowed to do this specified activity within it's own borders.

The simple reason is because states don't have rights - individuals have rights. One of those rights individuals have is a right to life, so it's wrong when a nation state unjustly deprives someone of their right to life.

I'm just saying it happens, and what does the UN worry about?

I don't recall mentioning the UN.

 

[pat34lee]

The simple reason is because states don't have rights - individuals have rights. One of those rights individuals have is a right to life, so it's wrong when a nation state unjustly deprives someone of their right to life.

What about when it is not only just, but necessary?

 

[Yekcidmij]

What about when it is not only just, but necessary?

What about it?

 

[pat34lee]

What about it?

Our rights can be taken away, supposedly only with
due process, such as a court trial.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Our rights can be taken away, supposedly only with
due process, such as a court trial.

Ok. Not sure what you're getting at.

 

[pat34lee]

Ok. Not sure what you're getting at.

Just answering your earlier post.

Yekcidmij said: ↑
The simple reason is because states don't have rights - individuals have rights. One of those rights individuals have is a right to life, so it's wrong when a nation state unjustly deprives someone of their right to life.

There is a difference between unjustly depriving one's rights
and removing those rights legally.

And states do have some rights, but also responsibilities that
the individual does not have.

 

[Yekcidmij]

There is a difference between unjustly depriving one's rights
and removing those rights legally.

Of course. Due process means a state can't "do whatever it wants" within it's own borders because it should respect the rights it's citizens have. Glad you agree with me now.

And states do have some rights,

A state is just a collection of individuals - it's an abstract entity, which exists to secure the rights of it's citizens.

but also responsibilities that
the individual does not have.

No, the individuals that make up the citizenry of the state delegate their authority to the state. It's your responsibility to survive, to live, and to recognize the rights of others. But we delegate some of the means to secure our right to life - such as defense and justice. We organize a collective defense, police force, judicial system, etc.. Even though you delegate your authority and means to the state, the state ultimately isn't responsible for your survival (your realization of your right to life), you are.

I'm basically summarizing a line from the Declaration of Independence, but it seems you may not agree with it (especially if said government were Israel):

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

 

[pat34lee]

Of course. Due process means a state can't "do whatever it wants" within it's own borders because it should respect the rights it's citizens have. Glad you agree with me now.



A state is just a collection of individuals - it's an abstract entity, which exists to secure the rights of it's citizens.



No, the individuals that make up the citizenry of the state delegate their authority to the state. It's your responsibility to survive, to live, and to recognize the rights of others. But we delegate some of the means to secure our right to life - such as defense and justice. We organize a collective defense, police force, judicial system, etc.. Even though you delegate your authority and means to the state, the state ultimately isn't responsible for your survival (your realization of your right to life), you are.

I'm basically summarizing a line from the Declaration of Independence, but it seems you may not agree with it (especially if said government were Israel):

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

" it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

People have the right to the government of their choice; good or bad.
Too many today choose what they believe benefits them instead of
what is best for the whole country.