Up to 1,000 children may have been victims in worst UK abuse ring

[Radagast]

you point out a single case and then without evidence claim it's a particular community's problem, that actually is racist

That thinking is exactly the reason why authorities turned a blind eye in both Rotherham and Telford. The perpetrators were from a specific community. It seemed racist to say that, so authorities just brushed these horrific crimes under the carpet.

 

[TerranceL]

There's a sad irony to this when an article says that people are afraid of naming what communities this has become a problem in because they don't want to be labeled racist....and then when a poster points out what communities this is a problem in, other posters call it racist.

People who rape children have feelings too and apparently some people are really all about protecting those feelings.

 

[SummerMadness]

People who rape children have feelings too and apparently some people are really all about protecting those feelings.

The problem is the attempt to prop up the racist argument as an issue of a particular community ignores the widespread issue of human trafficking. As @Tanj pointed out, the problem in the UK is not relegated to a specific community. Most victims share the common characteristic of vulnerable populations from countries with high levels of poverty. However, if your focus is on promoting bigotry you miss this and your "solutions" will do little to lessen the problem (of course the real question is do you actually care about the victims or simply want to attack a particular population).

 

[Ana the Ist]

The two links I provided were for the UK. I thought that was plain...

Ok...let's talk about the difference then...

The crimes referenced in the OP are committed by locals, migrants, people not part of any sort of international crime syndicates (like the Albanians). While the crime they committed could fall under "sex trafficking "...what they're doing is taking local girls, often UK citizens, who are underage and using drugs and alcohol to manipulate them into abusive sexual exploitation. We can get into the reasons "why" if you like....but for now, that's a fair if succinct description of their crime.

The first article you referenced is about how Albanian organized crime is taking naive eastern European girls and shipping them to unknown nations, like the UK, and basically keeping them prisoner for sexual exploitation. A lot of times, these girls don't even know where they are.

So while they're both sex trafficking...they're not even remotely similar crimes. They're not even investigated by the same agencies.

And when, as is actually the case, you point out a single case and then without evidence claim it's a particular community's problem, that actually is racist. It's also sad, but sadly not ironic.

Did you miss the quote from the other posters that out of hundreds of these cases over a 10 year period 80%+ were committed by these mideastern migrants?

It's pretty remarkable the level of denial going on here just to virtue signal. Can you at least admit that it's more important that little girls and boys aren't getting raped than it's important that a few people might get a negative impression of mideastern immigrants?

 

[Mandelbrot]

The reports on the first scandal pointed out several things that all contributed to the victimization of the girls. First, there were class issues. The girls were from the poorer elements, such as living in public housing. So, a lot of the behavior of the men was dismissed as the girls acting out and running around with older boyfriends. In addition, the police and council members dismissed the concerns of social workers who knew exactly what was going on and tried to warn them. There was a total lack of respect towards these workers. It doesn't do any good to only focus on one aspect of the case, such as people being afraid of being called racist or the culture of the rapists. For instance, it was English culture that turned a blind eye to the victims.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Considering the American president, Americans should not be talking about how Muslims look at women.

You and I often agree on a lot of things, but I can't agree with this statement.

Because Trump sucks and is a womanizer, people aren't allowed to point out factual flaws with specific religious groups and problematic practices that are more prevalent within them than they are within other religions?

By that standard, I can't condemn the tossing of gays off of rooftops in Muslim countries or comment on how there's a real problem with gay acceptance in the Muslim communities, because here in the US, we have the Westboro Church.

Leftist and many of my fellow secularists often seem to have this need to present things with even-handedness where they won't discuss issues in one religion without trying to counterbalance that with a criticism of something else from another religion.

Anyone who debates with me here knows that I don't go easy on the US Christian fundamentalists and am very critical of them...but at the same time, I'm not going to pretend that the issues in the Muslim world aren't much much worse in present times. ...because they are. Almost without exception, any issues being caused by right wing theocratic types in the US are happening to a much larger degree in Islamic countries.


Do modern day far-right GOP types treat women and gays like garbage by what I would consider civilized western standards? Yes...

However, I'm sure the gay guy in this picture (if he were still alive) could attest to the fact that things are worse on that particular front for Muslim countries than they are here:

...as could this woman who is about to be executed for marrying someone her father didn't approve of:

 

[TerranceL]

I remember when the big story wasn't gangs of muslim men grooming and raping children, back then it was priest raping children and being protected by the church.

What I don't remember then is a bunch of liberals carrying water for the catholic church to try to shut down all talk about the subject.

I gotta ask my progressive friends here, why is this the bad kind of child rape to talk about while the catholic one wasn't?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I gotta ask my progressive friends here, why is this the bad kind of child rape to talk about while the catholic one wasn't?

I can't speak for progressives, I only lean left on certain issues...but I do have a hunch...

Far-left culture has a high level of overlap with "PC no matter what" culture, and the latest iteration of PC culture dictates that you have to side with whatever entity happens to be the "underdog" at any given time. Since Catholicism is a powerhouse in terms of a US religious affiliation, and Muslims are a minority, the PC crowd feels compelled to side with the minority no matter the circumstances. If modern day Catholics were a minority, marginalized group that happened to be the target of some unfair treatment in some other societal realms, then I'd expect that they'd be trying to defend them too.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The reports on the first scandal pointed out several things that all contributed to the victimization of the girls. First, there were class issues. The girls were from the poorer elements, such as living in public housing. So, a lot of the behavior of the men was dismissed as the girls acting out and running around with older boyfriends. In addition, the police and council members dismissed the concerns of social workers who knew exactly what was going on and tried to warn them. There was a total lack of respect towards these workers. It doesn't do any good to only focus on one aspect of the case, such as people being afraid of being called racist or the culture of the rapists. For instance, it was English culture that turned a blind eye to the victims.

Welcome to CF!

 

[Ana the Ist]

You and I often agree on a lot of things, but I can't agree with this statement.

Because Trump sucks and is a womanizer, people aren't allowed to point out factual flaws with specific religious groups and problematic practices that are more prevalent within them than they are within other religions?

By that standard, I can't condemn the tossing of gays off of rooftops in Muslim countries or comment on how there's a real problem with gay acceptance in the Muslim communities, because here in the US, we have the Westboro Church.

Leftist and many of my fellow secularists often seem to have this need to present things with even-handedness where they won't discuss issues in one religion without trying to counterbalance that with a criticism of something else from another religion.

Anyone who debates with me here knows that I don't go easy on the US Christian fundamentalists and am very critical of them...but at the same time, I'm not going to pretend that the issues in the Muslim world aren't much much worse in present times. ...because they are. Almost without exception, any issues being caused by right wing theocratic types in the US are happening to a much larger degree in Islamic countries.


Do modern day far-right GOP types treat women and gays like garbage by what I would consider civilized western standards? Yes...

However, I'm sure the gay guy in this picture (if he were still alive) could attest to the fact that things are worse on that particular front for Muslim countries than they are here:
View attachment 223055

...as could this woman who is about to be executed for marrying someone her father didn't approve of:
View attachment 223056

Great points. I think part of the problem with these conversations is a small group of usually liberals want to shout "islamaphobia" or "racism" the moment anyone makes any kind of criticism of Muslims without any examination of whether the criticism is valid or not.

I don't think Muslims are evil, I don't think most Muslim immigrants are criminals. I think the majority can probably assimilate into western societies without too much difficulty at all.

I do think, however, it's incredibly naive to imagine you can take a large group of men from a nation with appalling cultural views of women...and transplant them into a modern western society without any problems. All too often, these men are coming from cultures where they're taught their entire lives that women must be covered from head to toe in public because men have urges and cannot be expected to control them. They're taught that women who don't cover themselves are nothing but harlots who deserve to be used and abused. They're taught it's ok to use violence to control a non subservient woman. In some cases, the views they hold of women are much much worse. I've never even heard of the term "sexual emergency" until recent years when these men thought it would validate their crimes. Every nation that's accepted a large number of these immigrants is now dealing with these problems...and most aren't doing it very well.

In spite of this, there's many liberals who want to shout racism the moment anyone points out these problems...as if it's a greater crime to hold a negative opinion of these cultures than it is to rape and sexually assault young men and women.

 

[Rion]

I remember when the big story wasn't gangs of muslim men grooming and raping children, back then it was priest raping children and being protected by the church.

What I don't remember then is a bunch of liberals carrying water for the catholic church to try to shut down all talk about the subject.

I gotta ask my progressive friends here, why is this the bad kind of child rape to talk about while the catholic one wasn't?

It's called the progressive stack. I am currently arguing with an atheist of that stripe who is literally defending de facto blasphemy laws in England because Muslims are considered a minority there.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

why is this the bad kind of child rape to talk about while the catholic one wasn't?

The results/ truth/ is beyond scope of anyone's imagination,
and it is a "sacred cow" sort of thing - people in the last ten years have appeared on television shows APPLAUDING when religious leader sex offenders CONFESS heinous crimes ! ! ! ? ? ? ! ? !?
Very wrong. Very bad. Very evil. Very common for 2000 years (the crimes, not the applause )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't think Muslims are evil, I don't think most Muslim immigrants are criminals.

They are sometimes victims, like the children. They are sometimes criminals. They are always tricked/ decieved.
Like all mankind, everyone is evil to start with. No escaping this.

 

[SummerMadness]

You and I often agree on a lot of things, but I can't agree with this statement.

Because Trump sucks and is a womanizer, people aren't allowed to point out factual flaws with specific religious groups and problematic practices that are more prevalent within them than they are within other religions?

I don't think you cannot criticize, but I should caveat my comment for the people that worship at the altar of Trumpism and call women liars for speaking out against sexual assault/harassment need to take a seat when it comes to criticizing misogyny in other cultures/countries.

By that standard, I can't condemn the tossing of gays off of rooftops in Muslim countries or comment on how there's a real problem with gay acceptance in the Muslim communities, because here in the US, we have the Westboro Church.

You can't if you voice approval for the Westboro Baptist Church.

Leftist and many of my fellow secularists often seem to have this need to present things with even-handedness where they won't discuss issues in one religion without trying to counterbalance that with a criticism of something else from another religion.

Anyone who debates with me here knows that I don't go easy on the US Christian fundamentalists and am very critical of them...but at the same time, I'm not going to pretend that the issues in the Muslim world aren't much much worse in present times. ...because they are. Almost without exception, any issues being caused by right wing theocratic types in the US are happening to a much larger degree in Islamic countries.

The problem with your statement, and what I suspect many people complain about is not that these are not problems, but they are not a reflection of an entire culture. You talk about people being being put to death for being homosexuals, how many countries is that? And if you were to gauge this number with the number of Muslim countries out there, does it represent most of the Muslim world or not? It's the same thing with talking about women's rights and saying, "Women can't drive cars in the Muslim world," ignoring that this was only in Saudi Arabia. I think there are things that you can criticize, but broad brushing that to all Muslims is the main problem because just as we can see nuance in our society and in different countries, it is the same in the Muslim world.

I think female genital mutilation is another topic where it is extended to all Muslims, when the practice is almost exclusively in equatorial Africa. Moreover, the practice is not something that is only done by Muslims. So should we now call it an African problem? No, because it is not the entire continent, it is relegated to specific areas and countries, which is kind of the point. There is no issue with calling out problems, but when you insist on saying it typifies a religion, continent, race (ah yes, the new term some use is culture), etc., you will get push back against such declarations.

Child abuse rings are not a Muslim thing, the countries where this is the largest problem: India, Thailand and Brazil. Do you know what is common in many of these rings? Vulnerable populations with high poverty, it's not the religion that's the problem. In some cases, people use religion to justify actions, like bacha bazi in Afghanistan and Pakistan; but then you had the Taliban punishing with the death penalty citing that is against Islam. Is this practice all across the Muslim world or phenomena in this region of Asia? I think you can talk about these issues without resorting to, what I consider an inaccurate attribution to Islam.

But I think this returns to the point that child abuse rings are not a problem with Islam. Perhaps you can say rings like this are a problem with organized crime in immigrants from specific countries (Afghanistan and Pakistan because they mention Asia), but do we apply this to Bosnian Muslims? What about Moroccan Muslims? When you start to pull it back, it's apparent it does not apply to a lot of people.

 

[Tanj]

nvmd

 

[Landon Caeli]

The following quote from the article really shows the startling reality why Pakistani Muslim men, primarily, are doing this...

"The study found that while girls from the Asian community were seen as "protected" because chastity was linked to "family honour", young white women were deemed "easy targets" and "open to sexual relationships with a little persuasion".

They also identified how men in the gangs had shared a common view of their sexual abuse, having collectively justified their behaviour, according to the new study quoted in the UK media."
Pakistani-origin 'sex gangs' target white girls in UK: Report - Times of India

...This indicates to me, that poorly integrated Muslims tend to see non-Muslims at less value than themselves. So they somehow see it as 'okay' to abuse them. This would also seem to then explain this problem that exists widespread throughout Europe.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think you cannot criticize, but I should caveat my comment for the people that worship at the altar of Trumpism and call women liars for speaking out against sexual assault/harassment need to take a seat when it comes to criticizing misogyny in other cultures/countries.

You can't if you voice approval for the Westboro Baptist Church.

The problem with your statement, and what I suspect many people complain about is not that these are not problems, but they are not a reflection of an entire culture. You talk about people being being put to death for being homosexuals, how many countries is that? And if you were to gauge this number with the number of Muslim countries out there, does it represent most of the Muslim world or not? It's the same thing with talking about women's rights and saying, "Women can't drive cars in the Muslim world," ignoring that this was only in Saudi Arabia. I think there are things that you can criticize, but broad brushing that to all Muslims is the main problem because just as we can see nuance in our society and in different countries, it is the same in the Muslim world.

I think female genital mutilation is another topic where it is extended to all Muslims, when the practice is almost exclusively in equatorial Africa. Moreover, the practice is not something that is only done by Muslims. So should we now call it an African problem? No, because it is not the entire continent, it is relegated to specific areas and countries, which is kind of the point. There is no issue with calling out problems, but when you insist on saying it typifies a religion, continent, race (ah yes, the new term some use is culture), etc., you will get push back against such declarations.

Child abuse rings are not a Muslim thing, the countries where this is the largest problem: India, Thailand and Brazil. Do you know what is common in many of these rings? Vulnerable populations with high poverty, it's not the religion that's the problem. In some cases, people use religion to justify actions, like bacha bazi in Afghanistan and Pakistan; but then you had the Taliban punishing with the death penalty citing that is against Islam. Is this practice all across the Muslim world or phenomena in this region of Asia? I think you can talk about these issues without resorting to, what I consider an inaccurate attribution to Islam.

But I think this returns to the point that child abuse rings are not a problem with Islam. Perhaps you can say rings like this are a problem with organized crime in immigrants from specific countries (Afghanistan and Pakistan because they mention Asia), but do we apply this to Bosnian Muslims? What about Moroccan Muslims? When you start to pull it back, it's apparent it does not apply to a lot of people.

The five nations where you will be put to death by the state for being gay are all Muslim nations under sharia law. The other eight nations where it's possible to put someone to death for being gay, but it doesn't always happen are majority muslim nations.

So while it may be true that not all Muslim cultures execute gay people...it does seem fair to say that those cultures where Muslims are the majority, or completely in charge of the government, the rights of gays and women usually go right out the window (sometimes the gay people themselves go right out the window, or off the rooftop).

This isn't anything new though, what's new is the reaction of progressives who in recent years have gone from condemning these cultures for such horrible human rights abuses...to making excuses for them or minimizing them in some way.

It's rather hypocritical if you take all the talk progressives make over misogyny, the evil patriarchy, hetero-normacy, and sexual abuse by those in power seriously. You'd think that they'd uniformly condemn these places and the people who live there...but they don't.

The only reason for this hypocrisy I can think of is that it doesn't fit their narrative of "white people are evil...brown people are good". If they were to admit that these monstrously oppressive practices were a result of the culture...it would be tantamount to admitting that when the values of white Europeans take over a nation, things get dramatically better for women and gays.

It's a shame when racist political ideals stand in the way of the truth.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The following quote from the article really shows the startling reality why Pakistani Muslim men, primarily, are doing this...

"The study found that while girls from the Asian community were seen as "protected" because chastity was linked to "family honour", young white women were deemed "easy targets" and "open to sexual relationships with a little persuasion".

They also identified how men in the gangs had shared a common view of their sexual abuse, having collectively justified their behaviour, according to the new study quoted in the UK media."
Pakistani-origin 'sex gangs' target white girls in UK: Report - Times of India

...This indicates to me, that poorly integrated Muslims tend to see non-Muslims at less value than themselves. So they somehow see it as 'okay' to abuse them. This would also seem to then explain this problem that exists widespread throughout Europe.

It's a bit silly to think they'd have a different perspective. These progressives are either extremely ignorant of the cultural views about women in these muslim nations (which is definitely a possibility given their attempts to normalize the hijab)...or they think that once these immigrants come to a civilized western society they suddenly think "Oh wow, everything I ever believed about women, sex, sexual relationships, and sexual morality is wrong...These infidels got it right!" Lol.

It's either those possibilities...or they simply don't have the guts to admit when they're wrong.

 

[rambot]

The echoing throngs of those castigating the white tourists who flock to southeast Asian countries to prey on little children is deafenning.
If only those same life destroyers would be raping children they cared about, we'd have somewhere to go.

For the record, I'd agree that their rational for not stopping them is beyond inexcusable. But the idea that we can blame one particular group of outsiders because it is as aspect "of their culture or race", well, that don't work.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It's a bit silly to think they'd have a different perspective. These progressives are either extremely ignorant of the cultural views about women in these muslim nations (which is definitely a possibility given their attempts to normalize the hijab)...or they think that once these immigrants come to a civilized western society they suddenly think "Oh wow, everything I ever believed about women, sex, sexual relationships, and sexual morality is wrong...These infidels got it right!" Lol.

It's either those possibilities...or they simply don't have the guts to admit when they're wrong.

Which is weird too, because most progressives would surely not disrespect another culture they migrated to. Yet they're fine with their own culture being disrespected by migrants... It's just strange... I'll never understand.