UOC priests call for evaluation, and perhaps removal, of Patriarch Kirill

[public hermit]

More than 300 priests of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church have signed a petition to the primates of the Local Orthodox Churches, calling on them to review and evaluate the public statements of Patriarch Kirill of Moscow regarding the fratricidal war in Ukraine.

The statement accuses the Russian Patriarch of preaching the doctrine of the “Russian World,” “which deviates from the Orthodox teaching and should be condemned as heresy,” and of moral culpability for blessing and supporting the actions of Russian troops on Ukrainian territory

The priests thus make four specific calls to the primates of the Local Churches:

1. To unambiguously condemn the war in Ukraine
   
   
2. To call on President Putin to immediately end the war and pull Russian forces out of Ukraine
   
   
3. To review and evaluate the public statements of Pat. Kirill on the basis of Scripture and Church Tradition
   
   
4. To evaluate the idea of the “Russian World” at the pan-Orthodox level. Should this “doctrine” be condemned, then the Patriarch should be removed from his primatial throne
   

Hundreds of UOC priests appeal to Orthodox primates to evaluate statements of Patriarch Kirill

Thoughts? Do they have a legitimate complaint?

 

[Lukaris]

I believe they are right. These men are probably the legitimate Russian Orthodox Church in natural communion with the Ukrainian clerics.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/russia-orthodox-clerics-stop-war-ukrane/31730667.html

 

[HTacianas]

More than 300 priests of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church have signed a petition to the primates of the Local Orthodox Churches, calling on them to review and evaluate the public statements of Patriarch Kirill of Moscow regarding the fratricidal war in Ukraine.

The statement accuses the Russian Patriarch of preaching the doctrine of the “Russian World,” “which deviates from the Orthodox teaching and should be condemned as heresy,” and of moral culpability for blessing and supporting the actions of Russian troops on Ukrainian territory

The priests thus make four specific calls to the primates of the Local Churches:

1. 
   
   
   • To unambiguously condemn the war in Ukraine
   • To call on President Putin to immediately end the war and pull Russian forces out of Ukraine
   • To review and evaluate the public statements of Pat. Kirill on the basis of Scripture and Church Tradition
   • To evaluate the idea of the “Russian World” at the pan-Orthodox level. Should this “doctrine” be condemned, then the Patriarch should be removed from his primatial throne

Hundreds of UOC priests appeal to Orthodox primates to evaluate statements of Patriarch Kirill

Thoughts? Do they have a legitimate complaint?

I don't think they have a legitimate complaint. Patriarch Kiril is tending to the spiritual needs of his Church.

 

[Arcangl86]

I don't think they have a legitimate complaint. Patriarch Kiril is tending to the spiritual needs of his Church.

But the RoC exists in both Russia and Ukraine.

 

[HTacianas]

But the RoC exists in both Russia and Ukraine.

I am aware of that. And Kirill is concerned with the wellbeing of all of them. Everyone seemingly wants to color the whole thing as black and white but that is not the case.

 

[Arcangl86]

I am aware of that. And Kirill is concerned with the wellbeing of all of them. Everyone seemingly wants to color the whole thing as black and white but that is not the case.

The statements I've seen all seem to be pro-Russia. I might be misinformed though.

 

[HTacianas]

The statements I've seen all seem to be pro-Russia. I might be misinformed though.

The statements Kirill have made are not so much pro-Russia as they are anti-West. Kirill does not want the immoral influence of the West affecting the Russian Church. I've said here before, Kirill and Putin have intersecting interests. Putin wants to keep NATO out of Ukraine and Kirill wants to keep Western immorality out of Ukraine. Kirill is not championing Putin's war effort but is championing the unintended benefit of protecting the Russian Church.

Kirill has protected the Russian Church from Western influences before. It was Kirill who was behind the banning of the Jehovah's Witnesses from Russia. Kirill survived decades of Soviet repression of the Church. It was actually Putin who ended that repression. Now there is an unspoken agreement between them that goes something like "you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours". Putin leaves the Church alone and the Church leaves Putin alone. Each of them often make concessions to the other.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This reminds me of that case in Bulgaria, the orthodox church there was trying to remove non-bulgarian orthodox people because of a nationalist stance. The overall lesson to be learned from it is racism is heresy. Advocating ethnic cleansing would be a step beyond that, I'd imagine.
Racism Condemned as Heresy in 1872 - Blog - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese Blog

 

[public hermit]

The statements Kirill have made are not so much pro-Russia as they are anti-West. Kirill does not want the immoral influence of the West affecting the Russian Church. I've said here before, Kirill and Putin have intersecting interests. Putin wants to keep NATO out of Ukraine and Kirill wants to keep Western immorality out of Ukraine. Kirill is not championing Putin's war effort but is championing the unintended benefit of protecting the Russian Church.

Kirill has protected the Russian Church from Western influences before. It was Kirill who was behind the banning of the Jehovah's Witnesses from Russia. Kirill survived decades of Soviet repression of the Church. It was actually Putin who ended that repression. Now there is an unspoken agreement between them that goes something like "you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours". Putin leaves the Church alone and the Church leaves Putin alone. Each of them often make concessions to the other.

“Why did external forces rise up against the Russian lands?” he (Patriarch Kirill) said. “Why do they strive to destroy, divide, set brother against brother?"

Moscow Patriarch Kirill: Church is restraining the antichrist

You're saying by "external forces" rising up against "Russian lands" he means Western immorality/the anti-Christ? If we concede that's the case, how are the Ukrainian faithful supposed to take that? Are they now martyrs, justifiably slaughtered by Russian soldiers, holding back the anti-Christ? It sounds like he has too closely identified the Church with the state, but I don't know if that's considered a problem for Eastern Orthodoxy, generally speaking.

 

[HTacianas]

“Why did external forces rise up against the Russian lands?” he (Patriarch Kirill) said. “Why do they strive to destroy, divide, set brother against brother?"

Moscow Patriarch Kirill: Church is restraining the antichrist

You're saying by "external forces" rising up against "Russian lands" he means Western immorality/the anti-Christ? If we concede that's the case, how are the Ukrainian faithful supposed to take that? Are they now martyrs, justifiably slaughtered by Russian soldiers, holding back the anti-Christ? It sounds like he has too closely identified the Church with the state, but I don't know if that's considered a problem for Eastern Orthodoxy, generally speaking.

No one has said that anyone has been "justifiably slaughtered". But if you read some of Patriarch Kirill's sermons you see what he means. He -rightfully- points out gay pride parades as a near rite of passage for Western nations. He does not want that for the Russian Church. Why should he not speak out against it? We may find out one day that the "godless Russians" are in fact what's holding back antichrist.

 

[public hermit]

No one has said that anyone has been "justifiably slaughtered". But if you read some of Patriarch Kirill's sermons you see what he means. He -rightfully- points out gay pride parades as a near rite of passage for Western nations. He does not want that for the Russian Church. Why should he not speak out against it? We may find out one day that the "godless Russians" are in fact what's holding back antichrist.

I grasp what you're saying, I think. Patriarch Kirill supports the war because it keeps out western immorality. Clearly, the priests of UOC that are asking for an evaluation don't see it the same way. Is the EO policy to support political violence to further the ends of the Church? I wouldn't think it would be, but that sounds like what you're saying he means. It sounds like you're saying war and the killing of fellow Orthodox is acceptable if it furthers the ends of the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think they do, considering what’s happening from what I can see.

but I should add, it’s the bishop’s right to determine what happens from here not any priest or group of priests.

 

[HTacianas]

I grasp what you're saying, I think. Patriarch Kirill supports the war because it keeps out western immorality. Clearly, the priests of UOC that are asking for an evaluation don't see it the same way. Is the EO policy to support political violence to further the ends of the Church? I wouldn't think it would be, but that sounds like what you're saying he means. It sounds like you're saying war and the killing of fellow Orthodox is acceptable if it furthers the ends of the Church.

No one is saying anything of the sort. But Kirill has no authority to stop the war. Are the UOC Bishops calling for Kirill to wag his finger in Putin's face and demand that it end? What will become of the Russian Church if he does? Will another hundred thousand priests be sent to the gulags the way they were when the Russian government was at odds with the Church? Should Kirill bring the weight of the Russian government down on the Church in exchange for some empty rhetoric that makes the West feel good?

What I worry about here is the perceived moral high ground the West can claim as a result of the war that only supports the encroachment on the Russian Church.

 

[public hermit]

But Kirill has no authority to stop the war. Are the UOC Bishops calling for Kirill to wag his finger in Putin's face and demand that it end? What will become of the Russian Church if he does? Will another hundred thousand priests be sent to the gulags the way they were when the Russian government was at odds with the Church? Should Kirill bring the weight of the Russian government down on the Church in exchange for some empty rhetoric that makes the West feel good?

I can see this being the case, definitely. The Russian government is brutal. If he were to speak against it, they could be persecuted, even martyred.

 

[zippy2006]

Is the EO policy to support political violence to further the ends of the Church? I wouldn't think it would be, but that sounds like what you're saying he means.

Logically speaking, you are conflating 'supporting a war' with 'not condemning a war'. It's a rather significant conflation. It is incorrect to infer that because Kirill has not condemned the war he therefore supports it.

 

[Andrew.H]

I don't think it's unfair to say that this whole situation is very much so not black and white. I'm really not interested in taking sides in this one. Of the statements I've seen Patriarch Kirill make, most seem to be prayers for the rapid end of hostilities. I don't think that's the incorrect stance to take. I'll also add that I'm technically under the EP, and some of the things he's said aren't exactly what I would have said. But again, I really don't want to take sides.

Remember that modern warfare starts with information, subversion, demoralization, propaganda etc. Hot war is actually quite far down the list and of limited use. Everyone is playing mind games with each other all the time.

 

[Lost4words]

Shocking to read this:

'I'm shocked by my church leaders in Moscow' - priest in Ukraine

 

[Lukaris]

There are problems with the past in Russia also:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47975704.amp

I do not believe most Ukrainians support Nazism or that most Russians support Stalinism.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I guess Ukraine will need to separate from Moscow in a religious sense also due to their lack of charity in a time of need.