Unorthodox view of heaven/hell

[Serapha]

Hi there!



I viewed a video tonight concerning people who claimed to have experienced out-of-body episodes where they saw or experience "hell" in a very literal sense. Interestingly, all the people who gave testimony were athiest before their out-of-body experience, but each converted to Christianity during/after their experience.


So...

There was one interesting point which was made, and that concerned references to those people who have experienced the "light" and the "tunnel" of OBE's which see "heaven"... and the statement was made that OBE's can be misleading in that the Bible states that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and that all experiences that see "heaven" may not be OBE's that actually are seeing heaven, but the misconception that one may think that they can gain heaven without a saviour. In other words, seeing a vision of heaven may not be a vision of heaven.




So...

My question is... in the unorthodox realm, since satan is identified as capable of being an "angel of light" in the OBE's... are there any links on the internet that might relate to unorthodox Christians who have seen heaven or hell?

What is the opinion of OBE"s concerning unorthodox theology? any different than orthodox theology?


Psst... and there is a poll I posted out of curiosity.


~serapha~

 

[Hidden Manna]

Hi there!



I viewed a video tonight concerning people who claimed to have experienced out-of-body episodes where they saw or experience "hell" in a very literal sense. Interestingly, all the people who gave testimony were athiest before their out-of-body experience, but each converted to Christianity during/after their experience.


So...

There was one interesting point which was made, and that concerned references to those people who have experienced the "light" and the "tunnel" of OBE's which see "heaven"... and the statement was made that OBE's can be misleading in that the Bible states that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and that all experiences that see "heaven" may not be OBE's that actually are seeing heaven, but the misconception that one may think that they can gain heaven without a saviour. In other words, seeing a vision of heaven may not be a vision of heaven.




So...

My question is... in the unorthodox realm, since satan is identified as capable of being an "angel of light" in the OBE's... are there any links on the internet that might relate to unorthodox Christians who have seen heaven or hell?

What is the opinion of OBE"s concerning unorthodox theology? any different than orthodox theology?


Psst... and there is a poll I posted out of curiosity.


~serapha~

Planting of Heaven and earth

In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt;
Isiah 51:16

And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’
Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already occurred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the “Planting of Heaven and earth”
This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referring to it’s destruction. The end is the destruction of the “Heavens and earth”, of old covenant Judaism, that God created after He parted the sea.

Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth it’s self are all to continue “forever” (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21) , the conclusion that the “heaven and earth” that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the “heaven and earth” of operational Biblical Judaism, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the “heavens and earth” AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.

 

[disciple00]

Hi there!



I viewed a video tonight concerning people who claimed to have experienced out-of-body episodes where they saw or experience "hell" in a very literal sense. Interestingly, all the people who gave testimony were athiest before their out-of-body experience, but each converted to Christianity during/after their experience.


So...

There was one interesting point which was made, and that concerned references to those people who have experienced the "light" and the "tunnel" of OBE's which see "heaven"... and the statement was made that OBE's can be misleading in that the Bible states that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and that all experiences that see "heaven" may not be OBE's that actually are seeing heaven, but the misconception that one may think that they can gain heaven without a saviour. In other words, seeing a vision of heaven may not be a vision of heaven.




So...

My question is... in the unorthodox realm, since satan is identified as capable of being an "angel of light" in the OBE's... are there any links on the internet that might relate to unorthodox Christians who have seen heaven or hell?

What is the opinion of OBE"s concerning unorthodox theology? any different than orthodox theology?


Psst... and there is a poll I posted out of curiosity.


~serapha~

it wold be better to establish a good platform from scripture then move on to examine the experiences of those people, from what i undesrstand, the dead know nothing. not to mention all the talk of judgement in revelation, i would have to go with saying that those folks were just seeing things.

regards disciple00

 

[disciple00]

Hi there!



I viewed a video tonight concerning people who claimed to have experienced out-of-body episodes where they saw or experience "hell" in a very literal sense. Interestingly, all the people who gave testimony were athiest before their out-of-body experience, but each converted to Christianity during/after their experience.


So...

There was one interesting point which was made, and that concerned references to those people who have experienced the "light" and the "tunnel" of OBE's which see "heaven"... and the statement was made that OBE's can be misleading in that the Bible states that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and that all experiences that see "heaven" may not be OBE's that actually are seeing heaven, but the misconception that one may think that they can gain heaven without a saviour. In other words, seeing a vision of heaven may not be a vision of heaven.




So...

My question is... in the unorthodox realm, since satan is identified as capable of being an "angel of light" in the OBE's... are there any links on the internet that might relate to unorthodox Christians who have seen heaven or hell?

What is the opinion of OBE"s concerning unorthodox theology? any different than orthodox theology?


Psst... and there is a poll I posted out of curiosity.


~serapha~

it wold be better to establish a good platform from scripture then move on to examine the experiences of those people, from what i undesrstand, the dead know nothing. not to mention all the talk of judgement in revelation, i would have to go with saying that those folks were just seeing things.

regards disciple00

 

[Dottie]

Hi there!



I viewed a video tonight concerning people who claimed to have experienced out-of-body episodes where they saw or experience "hell" in a very literal sense. Interestingly, all the people who gave testimony were athiest before their out-of-body experience, but each converted to Christianity during/after their experience.


So...

There was one interesting point which was made, and that concerned references to those people who have experienced the "light" and the "tunnel" of OBE's which see "heaven"... and the statement was made that OBE's can be misleading in that the Bible states that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and that all experiences that see "heaven" may not be OBE's that actually are seeing heaven, but the misconception that one may think that they can gain heaven without a saviour. In other words, seeing a vision of heaven may not be a vision of heaven.




So...

My question is... in the unorthodox realm, since satan is identified as capable of being an "angel of light" in the OBE's... are there any links on the internet that might relate to unorthodox Christians who have seen heaven or hell?

What is the opinion of OBE"s concerning unorthodox theology? any different than orthodox theology?


Psst... and there is a poll I posted out of curiosity.


~serapha~

Personally, I do not believe that anyone has ever had an out of body experience. I believe there are some who may truly have think that they have, but I lean towards thinking that this would would be the effect of anesthetic, or some sort of chemical release in the brain when near death that would cause this. Even the Apostle Paul says that he didn't know if he was in his body of out of body when he was caught up to what he called the "third heaven". Some types of anesthetics can cause some pretty wierd sensations, and being near death can also. And the combination of both at the same time, can really bring on the unimaginable. Been there, done that!

~ Dottie ~

P. S. I coudn't vote in your pole because none of the choices matched what I believe. I believe that heaven does exist, but in a spiritual sense, and that hell was a creation of the RCC, way back when, so as to scare people into bringing in more tithes (money) to the till.

 

[holo]

Interesting questions. I've had my own OBE/NDE, an unpleasant one you might say.
But I have the feeling that whatever the reason I experienced it (and yes, it was real, more real than anything else I've experienced), it's not for me to use as some sort of argument for or against anything, like the existance of hell for example. I have my views and opinions on the subject, but in a way it has precious little to do with the big lines in the bible and in life.
I also notice that people have conflicting OBE/NDEs, and that should probably tell us something. I dunno.

btw I'm probably what you'd call an unorthodox christian.
Here's a link: www.near-death.com
I don't agree with this guy's theology, but what the heck.

 

[ShaggyFlasko]

Is spiritual not literal? What makes you think that?

I think heaven is a literal, spiritual place. I'm not sure about hell, though. I'm begining to lean toward annihilationism, but I could go either way depending on further study.

God bless
-Bill

 

[A New Dawn]

I believe that heaven exists in a real sense, but I don't believe in hell as most here would describe it, so I could not answer the poll.

 

[Dottie]

Is spiritual not literal? What makes you think that?

When I say "not literal" I mean that I think that it is not a place that can be seen, heard or felt by our human senses. I can agree with "heaven being a literal spiritual place" though.

May God bless you.
~ Dottie ~

 

[Rusticus]

The problem I have with the traditional concept of heaven and hell is this:

If heaven is the place of eternal happiness and hell is the place of eternal damnation.

Then how is it possible for those in heaven to be happy in the knowledge that there are others suffering eternal damnation in hell? (Those in hell might include husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, children etc of those in heaven....)



Rusticus

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]The problem I have with the traditional concept of heaven and hell is this:

If heaven is the place of eternal happiness and hell is the place of eternal damnation.

Then how is it possible for those in heaven to be happy in the knowledge that there are others suffering eternal damnation in hell? (Those in hell might include husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, children etc of those in heaven....)

Rusticus[/SIZE]

And the problem I have with your view is you are trying to substitute your ideas about justice, judgement, etc, for God's. Think of God in the most all encompassing, infinite way, you can. Not good enough! God said, "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts."

If you can't be happy in heaven while someone you know or care for in this life, is not there, I'm sure God can arrange for you to be where they are.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

 

[Rusticus]

If you can't be happy in heaven while someone you know or care for in this life, is not there, I'm sure God can arrange for you to be where they are.

My point was not that they are not in heaven also.
My point was that they suffer eternal damnation.
Not quite the same thing.

Rusticus

 

[Nehi]

The problem I have with the traditional concept of heaven and hell is this:

If heaven is the place of eternal happiness and hell is the place of eternal damnation.

Then how is it possible for those in heaven to be happy in the knowledge that there are others suffering eternal damnation in hell? (Those in hell might include husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, children etc of those in heaven....)



Rusticus

Heaven is a place of eternal HOLINESS, which is not equivalent with the human self focused notion of happiness.

In heaven the angels sing HOLY, HOLY, HOLY
not HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY

Heaven is far more THEOCENTRIC than your post implies.

Here's a thought: God is glorified in the execution of justice on sinners because it reflects His holiness. Would you rob God of this glory cause you're not "happy" ???

~ NEHI (In Heaven it is about HIM not us!)

 

[Dottie]

Heaven is a place of eternal HOLINESS, which is not equivalent with the human self focused notion of happiness.

In heaven the angels sing HOLY, HOLY, HOLY
not HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY

Heaven is far more THEOCENTRIC than your post implies.

Here's a thought: God is glorified in the execution of justice on sinners because it reflects His holiness. Would you rob God of this glory cause you're not "happy" ???

~ NEHI (In Heaven it is about HIM not us!)

Now NEHI, how in the world do you know all that about heaven? Have you been there and back already?

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~

 

[Nehi]

Now NEHI, how in the world do you know all that about heaven? Have you been there and back already?

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~

Hi Dottie,

Got this book called The Bible... I turned to Revelation 4 which says...

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,

who was, and is, and is to come.”​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16691420#_ftn2

So you see John went there and came back and told me....

Cool huh ? Do you have a Bible ? It's a great read.

~ NEHI (Blessings back at Dottie )

 

[Dottie]

Hi Dottie,

Got this book called The Bible... I turned to Revelation 4 which says...



So you see John went there and came back and told me....

Cool huh ? Do you have a Bible ? It's a great read.

~ NEHI (Blessings back at Dottie )

So, let me get this straight now. In heaven there will be 4 living creatures. One will be like a lion in appearance, one will be like an ox in appearance, and another will have a face like a man, and the other will be like a flying eagle in appearance? And day and night they never stop saying Holy, Holy, Holy?

# 1. Scripture says we shall be like Christ in appearance. (1John 3:2)

# 2. There is no such thing as night in heaven. (Rev. 21:25)

Maybe John didn't go to heaven after all, but had a vision which featured symbolic things? Whada ya think?

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]So, let me get this straight now. In heaven there will be 4 living creatures. One will be like a lion in appearance, one will be like an ox in appearance, and another will have a face like a man, and the other will be like a flying eagle in appearance? And day and night they never stop saying Holy, Holy, Holy?

# 1. Scripture says we shall be like Christ in appearance. (1John 3:2)

# 2. There is no such thing as night in heaven. (Rev. 21:25)

Maybe John didn't go to heaven after all, but had a vision which featured symbolic things? Whada ya think?

~ Dottie ~[/size]

If the plain sense, of scripture, makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Everything in the Bible can be blown off by claiming it is metaphorical, figurative, allegorical, symbolic, spiritual, etc. etc.

If it was a vision John would have said so, or made it clear in some way.

And FYI no night there only applies to New Jerusalem, not all of heaven. See how easy it is to harmonize scripture? Instead of trying to think up those witty little digs, Whada ya think?

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.​

 

[Dottie]

If the plain sense, of scripture, makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Everything in the Bible can be blown off by claiming it is metaphorical, figurative, allegorical, symbolic, spiritual, etc. etc.

If it was a vision John would have said so, or made it clear in some way.









And FYI no night there only applies to New Jerusalem, not all of heaven. See how easy it is to harmonize scripture? Instead of trying to think up those witty little digs, Whada ya think?

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.​

Well, by all means, and of course! If you say so, Der. I mean, who am i to argue such a powerful and formidable force as YOU?

 

[Nehi]

So, let me get this straight now. In heaven there will be 4 living creatures. One will be like a lion in appearance, one will be like an ox in appearance, and another will have a face like a man, and the other will be like a flying eagle in appearance? And day and night they never stop saying Holy, Holy, Holy?

# 1. Scripture says we shall be like Christ in appearance. (1John 3:2)

# 2. There is no such thing as night in heaven. (Rev. 21:25)

Maybe John didn't go to heaven after all, but had a vision which featured symbolic things? Whada ya think?

Blessings.
~ Dottie ~

Dottie,

Methinks, your response missed the center of my response to Rusticus and yourself.

• The place is heaven
• The trifold, continual liturgy is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY not HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY

Let me ask you the question I asked Rusticus...

Here's a thought: God is glorified in the execution of justice on sinners because it reflects His holiness. Would you rob God of this glory cause you're not "happy" ???

~NEHI (Scripture says we will be like Christ. Scripture calls Christ the Lamb. .... Wow, I'm gonna be covered in wool and cry BAAAA, BAAAA, BAAAA. Wonder if BAAAA is sheep talk for the word Holy ???)

 

[Der Alte]

Well, by all means, and of course! If you say so, Der. I mean, who am I to argue such a powerful and formidable force as YOU?

I post what I believe to be the truth, to be factual, I support my posts with Biblical, lexical, linguistic, and historical evidence, the same as any other poster here.

Yea verily, whosoever standeth not the heat, shouldst flee from the kitchen.