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Universalism...why not?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 1, 2017.

Which is it?

  1. God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    4 vote(s)
    8.2%
  2. God can't do what he wants to do.

    2 vote(s)
    4.1%
  3. Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    40 vote(s)
    81.6%
  4. Don't know...never thought about this before.

    3 vote(s)
    6.1%
  1. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    are we there yet?
     
  2. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I don't know that I would be so quick to write off the accuracy of the English translation of the Tanakh by the Jewish Publishing Society because it does not fit with my pre-conceived ideas. The JPS is a respected participant in Jewish Bible translation and scholarly commentaries on the Jewish Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The following source disagrees with you. The translations of AD as "further", "beyond", "futurity", "still" & other synonyms also fits in well with this statement re AD:

    "Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
    Derivative Transliteration: 'olam

    'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).

    Bibliography: Snaith, Norman H., "Time in the Old Testament, " in Promise and Fulfillment, Essays Presented to Professor S. H. Hooke, ed. F. F. Bruce, Edinburgh: Clark, 1963, pp. 175-86. Jenni, E., "Das wort 'olam im AT, " Diss, Theol. Basel 1953 ( ZAW 64:197-248; 65:1-35). A.A.M."

    The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

    The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    Compare v.3:

    l·oulm u·od
    for·eon and·futurity

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
    Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
    Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

    Habbukah 3:6:

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[ad] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

    Young's Literal Translation
    He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

    CLV
    He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

    Daniel 12:2:

    Young's Literal Translation
    'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
    age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

    Rotherham
    and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
    abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The JPS have misled the public in its translation of olam. It's the same thing most Bible versions by pro hellfire dogmatists have also done in the NT with aion and aionios.

    As i've posted before:

    Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


    --------------------------------

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

    1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    BDB Definition:
    1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future

    Definition of continual
    "1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"
    Definition of CONTINUAL

    Indefinite continuance of duration is in harmony with the translations i posted of "further", "beyond", etc. But disagrees with your notion that the word means only eternal and never "further".

    If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" they wouldn't have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:

    "...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
    "...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
    "...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)

    The second definition of perpetual:
    "2: occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued . perpetual problems"
    Definition of PERPETUAL

    Definition of continual
    "1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"
    Definition of CONTINUAL

    The translations "perpetual" & "continually" are similar to those i posted re AD[5703] in Daniel 12:3.
     
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  6. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Clement what you neglected to say above is:

    In my opinion - "The JPS have misled the public in its translation of olam."

    See how a mistranslation can make a difference.... :)
     
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  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Which following source? You did not identify any source. I see that you made reference to TWOT which OBTW I happen to own. Here is the full definition of עד/"ad from Theological Wordbook of the OT. Please note there is no "further", "beyond", "still" etc. But I have included a few lines from the very next entry in TWOT a word similar to "ad" which does have those definitions. Evidently whatever source you quoted from either ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition. I strongly believe it was deliberate to support their agenda..
    עד‘ad 1. Perpetuity. Asv. Rsv translate similarly. except in Isa 45:17. Here the former has world without end while the latter has .to all eternity It should be noted that there is no general word for time in Hebrew. neither are there special terms for the past. present. future. and eternity. The word 'ôlãm should be compared with special attention given to the nineteen times when these words are used together.
    ad. like ôlam. is used only in connection with prepositions, as an adverbial accusative or as a genitive in a construct chain. Ugarite b’d 1m could correspond to Hebrew. 'ôd as well as to 'ad (UT 19: no. 1813).
    This word is used only twice relative to the past. The knowledge that the success of the wicked is short. has been known from of old (Job 20:4). In Hab 3:6 reference is made to the antiquity of the mountains.
    Otherwise it always denotes the unforeseeable future: that is, it means in the following compounds 'ãdè-'ad “forever’ (Isa 26:4: 65:18: Ps 83:17 [H 181: 92:7 [H 8]: 132:12. 14. la'ad “forever. (isa 64:9 [H 8]: Amos 1:11: Mic 7:18: Ps 9:18 [H 19]: 19:9 [H 10]: 21:6 [H 7]: 22:26 [H 271. 37.29: 61.8 [H 9]. 89.29 [H 30]: 111.3, 8, 10. 112.3. 9. 148:6, Job 19.24. Pros 12.19. 29.14. I Chr 28:9); I’Olãm wa’ad and ‘ôlã,n wa'adn “forever and ever” (Ex 15:18: Mic 4:5: Ps 9:5 [H 6]: 10:16: 21:4 [H 5]: 45:6 [H 7], 17 [H 18]: 48:14 [H 15]: 52.8 [H 10]; 104:5: 119:44: 145:1.2, 21: Dan 12:3): and as well as in a construct chain in which it serves as the modifier (Isa 9:6 [H 5]1) ‘äbi-'ad .father forever”: 57:15: shökën ad ..then eternal throne”: Hab 3:6: har re-'ad “the everlasting hills.”
    Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God. His existence is eternal (Isa 57:15). While his righteous endures forever (Ps 111:3: 112:3, 9). his anger does not (Mic 7:18). God is worthy of praise and will be praised forever Ps. 45:17 [H18]: 52:9 (H 10): 111:10: 145:1. 2. 211 The throne of God (Ps 10:l6:45:6 (H 7): Ex 15:18) and the law of God (Ps 19:9 (H 10)) will endure forever.
    48:14 [H 15]; 132:14: 1 Chr 28:9).
    This word is also applied to Israel. The Davidic dynasty will continue forever, depending upon their response to the covenant (Ps 89:29 (H 30 132:12). Zion is Gods dwelling place forever
    A sharp contrast is seen in the use of this word reIative to the righteous and wicked. The righteous will not always be forgotten (Ps 9:18 [H 19]) and they will inherit the land forever (Ps 37.29). By contrast the wicked are doomed to destruction forever (Ps 9:6 [H 7]): 92:7 [H 8])t.
    ===
    'ad II, as far as, even to, until, while. The special poetic form, 'tade is used twelve times. ad functions as both preposition and conjunction. It indicates the gamut. beginning with the distance from, the advance toward, and the movement up to. It is used spatially. temporally. and comparatively....
    I think we can dispense with the rest of this copy/paste based on false definitions.
     
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Remember this post?
    I do not require instruction in English. "continual" is not the same as "continuing future!" "Similar" does not mean the same thing as "same!" But I am quite sure that you can find something, written by someone, somewhere which you think is superior to all of the sources I have posted solely because they support your assumptions/presuppositions..
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The source & word (TWOT & olam) with bibliography was written right before your eyes.

    As for your comment re "ignorantly or deliberately chose the wrong definition" & your strong belief it was "to support their agenda", it was you yourself who posted those words here:

    the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

    So i'll let your 2017 self work out with your 2005 self this stuff about "deliberately choosing the wrong definition" & "agenda" stuff.

    "'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)." (TWOT)

    "Compare...'Ad (5703) which has about the same spectrum of meaning as owlam. The Septuagint generally translates owlam by aion(G165)cf. New Testament Lexical section,
    referring to a long age or period of time...".
    (Spiros Zodhaites, Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible pg. 1757)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  10. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    so who are you talking to now, me or someone else? I you are talking to me I have no idea what you are talking about, I say that because I don't believe I chose any definition, all I said was in your opinion.

    so here is olam from the NAS Hebrew Dictionary:

    5769. עוֹלָם olam or

    עֹלָם olam [761d]; from an unused word; long duration, antiquity, futurity:—all successive(m)(1), always(1), ancient(m)(13), ancient times(3), continual(m)(1), eternal(2), eternity(3), ever(7), everlasting(110), Everlasting(2), for ages(1), forever(136), forever*(65), forevermore*(1), from of old(4), lasting(m)(1), long(2), long ago(3), long past(1), long time(3), more*(2), never*(16), of old(8), permanent(10), permanently(1), perpetual(29), perpetually(1).

    and from the Key Dictionary of Hebrew:

    5769. עוֹלָם ʿôlām: A masculine noun meaning a very long time. The [p. 814] word usually refers to looking forward but many times expresses the idea of looking backward. It may cover a given person’s lifetime (Ex. 21:6; 1 Sam. 1:22); a period of many generations (Josh. 24:2; Prov. 22:28); the time of the present created order (Deut. 33:15; Ps. 73:12); time beyond this temporal sphere, especially when used regarding God (Gen. 21:33; Ps. 90:2; Dan. 12:2, 7). The term also applies to many things associated with God, such as His decrees, His covenants, and the Messiah (Gen. 9:16; Ex. 12:14; Mic. 5:2[1]). This word describes the span of time in which God is to be obeyed and praised (1 Chr. 16:36; Ps. 89:1[2]; 119:112). In the age to come, there will be no need for sun or moon, for God Himself will be the everlasting light (Isa. 60:19, 20; cf. Rev. 22:5).

    and from the TLOT:

    עוֹלָם ʿôlām eternity


    S 5769; BDB 761b; HALOT 2:798b; ThWAT 5:1144–59; TWOT 1631a; NIDOTTE 6409



    1. The subst. *ʿālam- “most remote time,” etc. is distributed among all the NWSem. languages (Ug.: WUS no. 2036; UT no. 1858; KTU 1.108.21f.; 2.42.7, 9; Phoen.-Pun., Moab., Aram. from Sef. 3.24f. onward: DISO 213f.); it entered Arab. and Eth., sometimes with the later meaning (see 5), as a loanword from Aram. (cf. E. Jenni, “Das Wort ʿōlām im AT” [diss., Basel, 1953] = ZAW 64 [1952]: 197–248; 65 [1953]: 1–35; regarding the original and extrabibl. usage of the word, see 199–221; since then numerous new occurrences have been identified).



    The etymology of the word is uncertain. In terms of the older derivation from the verb ʿlm “to be hidden,” attested only in Hebr., the nom. form is sg. (cf. also W. F. Albright, Proto-Sinaitic Inscriptions and Their Decipherment [1966], 32, 42: an augmented form *ʿawlam > ʿôlam, transformed in Aram. to an overly correct ʿālam ); the understanding of the word as an adv. form with -ām cannot appeal to semantically similar uses of adv. forms of Akk. ullû “that”; the equation of a form of Hurrian *alam(u)- with Akk. dūriš “forever” in an Akk.-Hurrian bilingual text from Ugarit (PRU 3:311, 318n.2) only occasions cj.



    The OT has the Hebr. ʿôlām (lᵉʿēlôm in 2 Chron 33:7 is a scribal error; cf. Rudolph, HAT 21, 314; contra A. Dotan, UF 3 [1972]: 297) and the Bibl. Aram. cognate ʿālam (KBL 1109a).

    2. The statistical table arranges the 440 Hebr. and 20 Aram. instances (incl. Jer 49:36 K [read Q: ʿēlām ] and 2 Chron 33:7; see 1) according to their usage with the preps. lᵉ (in 1 Chron 23:25; 28:7, ʿad-lᵉʿôlām ), ʿad, and min, as the governed noun (g.n.) in a cs. relationship, or as an adv. acc., the latter under “other” grouped together with the textual errors Isa 64:4 (see BHS ) and Jer 49:36 K (see above), as well as the singular passages Eccl 3:11 (hāʿôlām as obj.; see 4g) and 12:5 (ʿôlām with suf.; see 4g).

    So basically if you are looking for certitude in the various translations of the Bible given we do not have access to the original documents/scrolls etc. all you are really doing is making a fool of yourself and that goes for all those who choose to argue these points from a point of "I have the truth", they will always be a case of IN MY OPINION..... :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My post was addressed to Der Alter. So, no, not talking to you. But thanks for the info re OLAM.
     
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  12. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    No worries brother :) you have you hands full with that one :)
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The BDB lexicon lists Psa.21:7 as having the word AD[5703], but i see no AD[5703] listed for that verse here: Psalm 21:7 Interlinear: For the king is trusting in Jehovah, And in the kindness of the Most High He is not moved.

    Strongs lexicon allegedly has 15,000 errors. I wonder if the BDB lexicon has less or more errors than that.

    The BDB lexicon under AD[5703 Strongs] says "a. during lifetime, of king Psalm 21:7; Proverbs 29:14; of others Psalm 9:19; Psalm 22:27; Psalm 61:9; Proverbs 12:19." Strong's #5703 - עַד - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

    Most versions translate with the ridiculous "for ever"[AD] at Proverbs 29:14, while OTOH the BDB lexicon tells us it means "during lifetime". Clearly the word does not mean only "eternal" as Der Alter claimed. Moreover that it is here limited to the duration of a lifetime also proves he is incorrect that the word cannot be translated as "further", "beyond", "still" & synonymously. A better translation than most is:

    If a king judges the poor in truth, His throne shall be established for the future. (Prov.29:13, CLV)

    When a king judgeth faithfully the poor, his throne, to futurity, shall be established. (Prov.29:13, Rotherham)

    a king that is judging truly the poor, His throne for ever* is established. (Prov.29:13, YLT)

    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture:
    http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    I wonder how other translations translators feel readers should understand "for ever".

    Bottom line: there is nothing in the BDB lexicon that opposes the following translation of AD[5703] at Daniel 12:3. In fact the following translation of AD as "further" is well within the range of meanings given by BDB.

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further. (CLV)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your source was not properly identified. I'll leave you to figure out what that is. And as I have shown it did not "quote" TWOT. Quoting 3-4 words is not a proper citation. Please note that I posted the complete definition from TWOT and correctly identified it as the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
    Another phony quote from tents-я-us. There is no article on "ad" on pg. 1757, because there is no pg. 1757 in the "Lexical aids to the Old Testament" section. The article on "ad" is on pg. 1642 and here is the complete article.
    5703. ‘ad this masc. noun arises from 571o meaning duration. advance, perpetutty. eternity The ASV word without end, while the RSV has “to all eternity” Hebr. has no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity There simpIy was no word tor time in that language. See olam (5769) for further information. Ad and Olam appear together nineteen times. Only twice is ‘ad used with to the past (Job 20:4: Hab 3:6) Otherwise. it always denotes the unforeseeable future Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God His existence is eternal (Is 57:15) While His righteousness endures forever. (Ps. 111.3, 112.3. 9), His anger does not (Mic. 7:18). The throne of God will endure forever (Ps 1o:16). The dynasty of David will continue forever (Ps. 89:29, 132: 12), Zion is God's dwelling place forever. (Ps. 48:14, 132:149). Ad may function as a prep. and a conj. It can also be used in a comparative or superlative sense.
    It appears that those who espouse UR will believe anything that is posted at UR websites such as tents-я-us, without question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    It is not BDB which is wrong it is your link. The Hebrew verse numbers are different. Our Ps 21:6 is 21:7 in the Hebrew Bible.
    Psa 21:6 כי H3588 For תשׁיתהו H7896 thou hast made ברכות H1293 him most blessed לעד H5703 forever: תחדהו H2302 thou hast made him exceeding glad בשׂמחה H8057 thou hast made him exceeding glad את H854 with פניך׃ H6440 thy countenance.
    Instead of getting all your information from Tents-я-us maybe you should try consulting credible, verifiable, historical sources and perhaps you would not be embarrassed like this.
    ETA: As for occurrences where olam or ad is used to refer to something obviously not eternal. Let me refer you to these two articles from Tents-я-us. Remember now, everything at Tents-я-us.must be accepted without question.

    • Tents–r-us - Hyperbole
    The Bible is full of exaggerations … which are NOT to be taken literally. Careful attention, comparing scripture with scripture, knowing the Bible and its author thoroughly, making certain not to necessary apply things to ourselves which weren’t meant for us individually and some basics about the original languages are needed to prevent us from misinterpreting various scripture verses like this one. In this case, obviously, if something is against the will of God or if one asks with the wrong motive, no matter how much one believes for something, it won’t happen. (See James 4:2,3; John 5:19; John 15:5; 2 Cor.13:8, etc.) However, someone under a hyper-faith teaching ministry like the Word/faith movement, for example, may take this verse literally. Misinterpreting and misapplying this verse could cause one to do some serious damage to themselves and others due to demanding from God what He never really said He would do because they didn’t bother to find out or were never taught in their church that the Bible is FULL OF HYPERBOLE WHICH SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
    Bible Matters--Hyperbole
    • Tents–r-us Hyperbole - (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems
    This Bible Matters edition just briefly touches on just one of those figures of speech (hyperbole) and the hurdles we have to jump over in order to really understand what the writers of the Scriptures were really trying to convey.
    Of the over 200 different types of figures of speech employed by the writers of the Bible, hyperbole is actually one of the more easy forms to figure out in the Bible although many of them are not recognized.
    To read and understand the Bible as it was actually written, that is, filled with hundreds of different forms of figures of speech which should NOT be taken literally, requires some serious study – study which most Christians (including pastors) [and UR] are not willing to do. Jesus said that Satan was a liar and the father of all lies. Many Christians, who have been taught to read the Bible literally, categorize some forms of figures of speech as lies. Stretching the truth is considered a lie in many Christian circles. Some hyperbole actually enters into the realm of what we, in the West, would call a lie. The Semitic languages (Hebrew being one of them) are exaggerative to an extreme. The Bible is FILLED with these exaggerative expressions. Because we are taught to take the text literally and because most Bible translations have used a literal nearly word-for-word approach in translating, we are left with thousands of passages of Scripture to which we have little to no accurate understanding – and the understandings we have been taught by our teachers are often false.
    Bible Matters--<span class="style1">Hyperbole (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems</span>

     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Is that a good thing or a bad thing? ;)
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Those who died before the millennium fall into two categories;
    The righteous, who are resurrected to eternal/everlasting life,
    The wicked, who "lived not again until the thousand years are finished", (which I referenced in "those who were not worthy of the 1st resurrection".
    The wicked will be raised in the 2nd resurrection to judgment, confession of their sins, and destruction, "burned up", "ashes", "be no more", "return unto sheol/the grave".
     
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  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is the title of the book this comes from? What is the date of publication? What edition? Who are the author(s) & or editor(s)? Is the source a hardcover/softcover book, DVD, online download or what?
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are not reading or comprehending what i'm posting. This is the third time i am bringing this to your attention. You are looking in the wrong article. You quoted an article re the word AD from TWOT. I quoted from an TWOT article on OLAM that speaks about AD that you yourself posted in 2005. I gave you the link to the thread & page in 2005 where you posted that and which states:

    "'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."

    Post 1669 in this thread has the link i refer to above.
     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Tell you what amigo start by providing all that same information for every secondary quote you have posted in response to me. Start with your supposed quote from Zodhiates above. I have the book, you evidently do not which is why your supposed quote from Zodhiates had not only the wrong page number but also the wrong definition. I'll be waiting for you to get all that information. Once again do not demand/request from me what you cannot or are incapable of providing yourself.
     
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