Universalism- Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved

[Ceallaigh]

Your unsupported opinion about anything concerning the Jewish Encyclopedia is, and will always be, irrelevant. If you can find a Jewish "scholar" specifically refuting, with credible evidence, anything in the article I quoted then and only then will your objections be relevant. Accept it you have been skunked.

The canonization of the Jewish Bible carries for more authority than a Jewish encyclopedia.

 

[Der Alte]

The canonization of the Jewish Bible carries for more authority than a Jewish encyclopedia.

The canonized Hebrew scriptures do not refute anything I have quoted from the JE. None, nada.
See e.g.

Brenton Isaiah 14:9
(9) Hell [hades] from beneath is provoked to meet thee: all the great ones that have ruled over the earth have risen up together against thee, they that have raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.​

 

[Ceallaigh]

The canonized Hebrew scriptures do not refute anything I have quoted from the JE. None, nada.
See e.g.
Brenton Isaiah 14:9
(9) Hell [hades] from beneath is provoked to meet thee: all the great ones that have ruled over the earth have risen up together against thee, they that have raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

I'll ask you this a second time; are Judith and Enoch infallible Holy Scripture inspired by God? Yes or No.

 

[Der Alte]

I'll ask you this a second time; are Judith and Enoch infallible Holy Scripture inspired by God? Yes or No.

Irrelevant! Did or did not the Jewish scholars who wrote and compiled the 1906 Jewish encyclopedia quote Enoch 14 times as authoritative and Judith 3 times as authoritative? In the intervening 106 years has several generations of scholars read the JE and understood it to be accurate?

 

[Der Alte]

@MMXX
While I was otherwise occupied checking out scriptures, I remembered a couple of passages. Here from the English translation of the 225BC LXX the subject is the king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:9-12
(9) Hell [sheol] from beneath is provoked to meet thee: all the great ones that have ruled over the earth have risen up together against thee, they that have raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All shall answer and say to thee, Thou also hast been taken, even as we; and thou art numbered amongst us.
(11) Thy glory has come down to Hades, [sheol]and thy great mirth: under thee they shall spread corruption, and the worm shall be thy covering.
(12) How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.​

Then I remembered another passage in Ezekiel

Ezekiel 32:18-21
(18) Son of man, lament over the strength of Egypt, for the nations shall bring down her daughters dead to the depth of the earth, to them that go down to the pit.
(20) They shall fall with him [Pharao king of Egypt v. 2]] in the midst of them that are slain with the sword, and all his strength shall perish: the giants also shall say to thee,
(21) Be thou in the depth of the pit: [sheol] to whom art thou superior? yea, go down, and lie with the uncircumcised, in the midst of them that are slain with the sword.
Ezekiel 32:31-32
(31) King Pharao [in sheol] shall see them, and shall be comforted over all their force, saith the Lord God.
(32) For I have caused his fear to be upon the land of the living yet he shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharao, and all his multitude with him, saith the Lord God.​

ca. 700 BC When the simple Jewish shepherds, vintners, farmers, scribes etc. heard these passages read in temple or the synagogue do you think they believed in hell?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Irrelevant! Did or did not the Jewish scholars who wrote and compiled the 1906 Jewish encyclopedia quote Enoch 14 times as authoritative and Judith 3 times as authoritative? In the intervening 106 years has several generations of scholars read the JE and understood it to be accurate?

Enoch and Judith were never canonized by the Jews as infallible scripture inspired by God. They are just simply Jewish writings that happen to exist.

 

[Ceallaigh]

@MMXX
While I was otherwise occupied checking out scriptures, I remembered a couple of passages. Here from the English translation of the 225BC LXX the subject is the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:9-12
(9) Hell [sheol] from beneath is provoked to meet thee: all the great ones that have ruled over the earth have risen up together against thee, they that have raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All shall answer and say to thee, Thou also hast been taken, even as we; and thou art numbered amongst us.
(11) Thy glory has come down to Hades, [sheol]and thy great mirth: under thee they shall spread corruption, and the worm shall be thy covering.
(12) How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.
Then I remembered another passage in Ezekiel
Ezekiel 32:18-21
(18) Son of man, lament over the strength of Egypt, for the nations shall bring down her daughters dead to the depth of the earth, to them that go down to the pit.
(20) They shall fall with him [Pharao king of Egypt v. 2]] in the midst of them that are slain with the sword, and all his strength shall perish: the giants also shall say to thee,
(21) Be thou in the depth of the pit: [sheol] to whom art thou superior? yea, go down, and lie with the uncircumcised, in the midst of them that are slain with the sword.
Ezekiel 32:31-32
(31) King Pharao [in sheol] shall see them, and shall be comforted over all their force, saith the Lord God.
(32) For I have caused his fear to be upon the land of the living yet he shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharao, and all his multitude with him, saith the Lord God.
ca. 700 BC When the simple Jewish shepherds, vintners, farmers, scribes etc. heard these passages read in temple or the synagogue do you think they believed in hell

None of that indicates a place eternal fiery torment.

 

[Der Alte]

Enoch and Judith were never canonized by the Jews as infallible scripture inspired by God. They are just simply Jewish writings that happen to exist.

Can you say "irrelevant?" Deliberate avoidance of the truth because the truth destroys your false UR narrative. Jews have been reading this for 106 years without question.
[Post moved]

 

[Ceallaigh]

Deliberate avoidance of the truth because the truth destroys your false UR narrative.

It's just a simple fact that Enoch and Judith were never canonized by the Jews as infallible scripture inspired by God. They are just simply Jewish writings that happen to exist. Pseudepigraphical deuterocanonical apocrypha.

 

[Fervent]

Enoch and Judith were excluded from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) canon which was most likely established well before the time of Jesus.

Not true, the Jewish canon was established after Jesus and was largely a reaction to Hellenization/the spread of Christianity. The canon was a major dispute between the Pharisees and Sadduces, with the Sadduces only recognizing the Torah.

All that said to point out you're operating with a very modern bias, making leaps about the historic views that are unsupported. Such as your distinction between recognizing Gehenna and seeing it as a place of eternal fiery torment. The distinction only holds if you are ignorant about the history of these doctrines since there's no such nuance prior to modern ideas regarding hell.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not true, the Jewish canon was established after Jesus and was largely a reaction to Hellenization/the spread of Christianity. The canon was a major dispute between the Pharisees and Sadduces, with the Sadduces only recognizing the Torah.

All that said to point out you're operating with a very modern bias, making leaps about the historic views that are unsupported. Such as your distinction between recognizing Gehenna and seeing it as a place of eternal fiery torment. The distinction only holds if you are ignorant about the history of these doctrines since there's no such nuance prior to modern ideas regarding hell.

Most of the dates I found were BC.

Actually I've been pointing out that there's a difference between the two.

 

[Der Alte]

The title of this thread is "Universalism-Why a literal reading of the King James Bible may imply that everyone will be saved."
What does a literal reading of this passage imply?

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

It implies to me that Jesus is not saying everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven but is saying "Not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me on judgement day, Lord, Lord, have we not in thy name done many wonderful works? And Jesus will say to those many I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. When Jesus says never, He meant never not some day by and by.

 

[Der Alte]

It's just a simple fact that Enoch and Judith were never canonized by the Jews as infallible scripture inspired by God. They are just simply Jewish writings that happen to exist. Pseudepigraphical deuterocanonical apocrypha.

I have been checking the Jewish Encyclopedia to see if your histrionic objections have affected any changes. I don't see any changes so your objections remain meaningless. Sorry about that. Let me know when they make changes.

 

[Fervent]

Most of the dates I found were BC.

Actually I've been pointing out that there's a difference between the two.

I'm not sure where you're finding the dates, but during Christ's earthly life the canon was still open and a heated topic of debate. It wasn't until after the destruction of the temple that a Hebrew roots type of movement really caught hold and the current canon was adopted, sometime between 96-106 AD. As for the distinction between the groups, only one of them believed in an afterlife so the existence or non-existence of hell boils down to that one group. And modern Judaism is pretty much entirely descended from Pharisaical judaism so the other sects aren't all that relevant anyway.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm not sure where you're finding the dates, but during Christ's earthly life the canon was still open and a heated topic of debate. It wasn't until after the destruction of the temple that a Hebrew roots type of movement really caught hold and the current canon was adopted, sometime between 96-106 AD. As for the distinction between the groups, only one of them believed in an afterlife so the existence or non-existence of hell boils down to that one group. And modern Judaism is pretty much entirely descended from Pharisaical judaism so the other sects aren't all that relevant anyway.

I'm finding them on the internet. Whatever the case, it was still hundreds of years before a 1906 encyclopedia.

 

[Saint Steven]

Pseudepigraphical deuterocanonical apocrypha.

Nice.
If I tried to type that, it would be a 5 minute battle between spellcheck and I . - LOL
Here's what auto-fill recommends.
Demographically canonicalization apocrypha.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nice.
If I tried to type that, it would be a 5 minute battle between spellcheck and I . - LOL
Here's what auto-fill recommends.
Demographically canonicalization apocrypha.

Close enough.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm finding them on the internet. Whatever the case, it was still hundreds of years before a 1906 encyclopedia.

And your point is?

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure where you're finding the dates, but during Christ's earthly life the canon was still open and a heated topic of debate. It wasn't until after the destruction of the temple that a Hebrew roots type of movement really caught hold and the current canon was adopted, sometime between 96-106 AD. As for the distinction between the groups, only one of them believed in an afterlife so the existence or non-existence of hell boils down to that one group. And modern Judaism is pretty much entirely descended from Pharisaical judaism so the other sects aren't all that relevant anyway.

[Bumped from previous post]
Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
*Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.);
* The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9)
*"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).
*When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.).
*The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners.
*In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).
* The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12)
* The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50;
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e996...0cHM6Ly9qZXdpc2hlbmN5Y2xvcGVkaWEuY29tLw&ntb=1

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why does Christ qualify those whom He came to save as "His people"? Why the qualifier if ALL people will be saved through Him? Universal redemption is not biblical.

This is a great question and one I think I know the answer or partial answer to. From Adam till Jesus those who followed Yahweh were given the promise of a promise land and all who would follow Yahweh would after death of the mortal body would eventually live in Yahwehs promise land , that which we call heaven. But once Jesus was finished with his calling we are under a new covenant and now the offer is not just a promise land it’s that Jesus has called us to be part of his kingdom we are told we will be joint heirs with Christ we will rule and rein with him. All those who accept Jesus and his sacrificial death are part of his family. This offer was not made in the other covenants that Yahweh had made with his creation. So all who follow Jesus in this mortal body are the elect we are his people those who have the character to die to self and are united with him in his death, we are called to die to self . All others will be subjects of his kingdom. ( who do you think we will rein over with Jesus, if all the rest are in a eternal torture chamber) That is why we are called his people we will be his new counsel ( The Unseen Realm by Michael Helser ) We will rein and rule with Jesus over the new earth and all the rest of his creation that rejected him and were thrown into the lake of fire to be purged of the sin that has kept them from seeing Yahweh as he is . Then and only then will 1Cor 15 God will be all in all . ( Apokatastasis) And that is why we are called his people.