Universal Basic Income (UBI)

[Kalevalatar]

I watched a documentary months ago on how Finland has been experimenting with new models of treating serious mental health problems such as schizophrenia through patient-directed care. That was quite impressive to see happening. What impressed me most was how the government in Finland seems to contradict the image we have in America of soulless inhuman bureaucrats.

But US politics is different. We have many ethnicities and religions and those things always serve as political wedge issues that powerful interests manipulate.

Indeed. Since the United States is an artificial nation in the truest sense, Americans tend to be more idealistic and US politics is ideologically driven and of course, highly divisive. Whereas Finns tend to be pragmatic and Finnish parliamentarism and policy making is consensus driven and relies much more on non-partisan research and professional knowledge.

 

[Yekcidmij]

If AI and robots take over most of our means of actually making an honest income,

I doubt that will happen.

Something that Republicans seem to forget is that massive companies and corporations are NOT your friends.

Of course they aren't - they're your employer. The relationship is a business relationship, so of course they aren't your friend.

By the same token, government isn't your friend either.

The person who cares most about you is you. The people best looking out for your interests are you, your family and your [actual] friends.

Their only goal is to make more money off of you and if they can find a way to legally screw you over to maximize their own profits, they will do it.

Employees would do the same thing. If I could get my employer to pay me a trillion dollars per year I would take it. The big secret is that everyone looks out for their own interests, employers and employees both included. Everyone tries to maximize their own profit.

 

[ubicaritas]

Indeed. Since the United States is an artificial nation in the truest sense, Americans tend to be more idealistic and US politics is ideologically driven and of course, highly divisive. Whereas Finns tend to be pragmatic and Finnish parliamentarism and policy making is consensus driven and relies much more on non-partisan research and professional knowledge.

It's almost impossible now days for any American to be pragmatic politically. Which is ironic because America has a unique school of philosophy called Pragmatism, with such figures as William James and John Dewey. And our politics at one time was driven by pragmatism and genuine expertise. But since the late 60's its been increasingly divisive until we reach the sad point it is today where people don't even have a shared consensus about much of anything anymore.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Iran actually has a society that functions well, even if it is at odds with the United States on ideals of human rights and geopolitics.

So Iran is just "at odds" with human rights ideals?

 

[ubicaritas]

So Iran is just "at odds" with human rights ideals?

My argument is actually congruent with what Kalevalatar had to say about pragmatism, that Iran's UBI system works. That's not an endorsement for all things Iranian but their country did not break into chaos just because a UBI was implemented.

 

[expos4ever]

The objection that UBI somehow promotes laziness is, I suggest, unsubstantiated speculation.

 

[Mountainmike]

I agree it is not sensible -For the common sense reasons..
If it is enough to live on , who would want to work instead?
And if it was not enough to live on, it would cause endless demands for it to increase to be a "living wage".
So productivity and economy funding would drop at a time the costs go up!

But it will fail mainly because It also creates a basic resentment by those who have to work to pay it to others!
( much like the single parent recipients of "tax credits" in the UK who get a near full time wage for doing only a few hours, who find having yet more children puts even more money in the bank - so they do even less to get even more)

That said, if such as nuclear fusion became a reality, an unlimited source of almost free energy, from which unlimited food and goods could be manufactured , it may get to the point where the world can afford it... Come back in 1000 years, if the world hasnt blown itself to bits by then!

Finland tried basic income small scale - there was a documentary following the recipients - then dropped it is my understanding.
It seem to achieve little lasting benefit even for those who received it.

"A universal basic income (UBI) is an unconditional cash payment given at regular intervals by the government to all residents, regardless of their earnings or employment status. Pilot UBI programs have taken place or are ongoing in the United States, Brazil, Canada, Finland, and other parts of the world. In 2017, Hawaii passed legislation creating a working group to study UBI. In that same year, 77% of Swiss voters rejected a proposal to introduce a UBI."
https://www.procon.org/headline.php?headlineID=005363

My opinion is that this is a stupid idea because people don't need government money to spend frivolously. I know of people on welfare who buy food for non-welfare co-dependents who accept the food and buy booze in exchange for the welfare recipient to get drunk on.

Bible:
2 Thessalonians 3
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Finland tried basic income small scale - there was a documentary following the recipients - then dropped it is my understanding.
It seem to achieve little lasting benefit even for those who received it.

The Finnish basic income trial is alive and well and will continue until the end of 2018. Analysis of the effects will begin in 2019 and will not be available until the end of 2019. Any claims you have heard of the basic income trial's supposedly achieving "little lasting benefit even for those who received it" are nothing but fake news.

 

[ChrisJ83]

"A universal basic income (UBI) is an unconditional cash payment given at regular intervals by the government to all residents, regardless of their earnings or employment status. Pilot UBI programs have taken place or are ongoing in the United States, Brazil, Canada, Finland, and other parts of the world. In 2017, Hawaii passed legislation creating a working group to study UBI. In that same year, 77% of Swiss voters rejected a proposal to introduce a UBI."
https://www.procon.org/headline.php?headlineID=005363

My opinion is that this is a stupid idea because people don't need government money to spend frivolously. I know of people on welfare who buy food for non-welfare co-dependents who accept the food and buy booze in exchange for the welfare recipient to get drunk on.

Bible:
2 Thessalonians 3
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

It's a necessary step paving the way for the New World Order and new electronic global currency.

 

[Mountainmike]

It's a necessary step paving the way for the New World Order and new electronic global currency.

Necessary for whom?
The ones who break their backs to pay for it?
Or the lazy who then sit idle at their expense?

Or does everyone go hungry, all equal , having equally nothing, just like Venezuela a UBI in a hyperinflating currency is worthless.

The problem with this socialist nonsense is that it arrives at the lowest common denominator. Because those who would otherwise work themsleves into the ground to create something for themselves and their children no longer will, if the state steals it from them to give it to people of leisure.

The way the russian food queues ended, was when the free market was reopened and price controls dropped.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I find it interesting that Hayek supported universal basic income.

 

[ChrisJ83]

Necessary for whom?
The ones who break their backs to pay for it?
Or the lazy who then sit idle at their expense?

Or does everyone go hungry, all equal , having equally nothing, just like Venezuela a UBI in a hyperinflating currency is worthless.

The problem with this socialist nonsense is that it arrives at the lowest common denominator. Because those who would otherwise work themsleves into the ground to create something for themselves and their children no longer will, if the state steals it from them to give it to people of leisure.

The way the russian food queues ended, was when the free market was reopened and price controls dropped.

Universal Basic Income is the part of the platform for the Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast will be an electronic currency, either in form of an invisible/visible RFID stamp/tattoo or chip implant. An electronic currency is THE ONLY way to control all buying and selling. For the leaders to bring in this currency, they must first destroy the old currencies...which as anyone can see is being done this very second. First they had to tie the global economies together, to the dollar, now they are destroying the dollar which will cause a domino effect. After a global economic collapse...everyone will be forced to sell themselves as a slave just to eat, and this is how everyone will accept the Mark of the Beast. It will be a universal basic income, so long as you take an oath, sell your soul and become a slave.

 

[grasping the after wind]

[

I think Universal Basic Income is a fantastic idea. I would love to see it implemented everywhere, and I say that as someone who has a substantially above average income. UBI would not only remove poverty from our society, it would prevent people being exploited by their employers, provide security for risk taking career choices (thereby directing people towards more fulfilling lives) and give many more options for education.

I would be fine with it as long as everyone continued to receive the exact same weekly , yearly or monthly income. If that should happen, I would flourish in such a situation as I am frugal. I could use my excess to improve my situation in society so that I would be better off than most others. I would expect, however, those that are not so inclined as I , would soon be complaining how unfair it was that I had things they did not have and money left over while they could not make ends meet. They would be claiming I was a winner of the lottery of life because I was born lucky by not having a frivolous nature therefore they ought to be given some of my stuff to compensate for their unfair disadvantage of being a spendthrift and having poor decision making skills. My questions are where does the money (I use the word money in a most generic sense. Not necessarily little pieces of metal and paper) come from to hand out and what would the money actually be worth?

As for technology making employment impossible, that has been predicted for longer than I have been alive and hasn't come to fruition so far. Let me know when it is actually about to happen and then I will be concerned with finding a solution to the problem. Until then I would be more concerned with real world issues rather than short sighted predictions that simply deal with one variable and take no other possibilities into account. After all the end of gainful employment for the masses was supposed to take place when there was no longer any great need for grooms, farriers, lamplighters etc., but somehow there always seems to be new things that need doing as a result of technological advancements or as a consequence of now having the ability to to do things that could only be accomplished because there is less need to do physical labor.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I think it might be an interesting idea if it were to replace most or all of medicare, medicaid, social security and welfare programs. You could probably make an argument that it would actually reduce government costs by reducing bureaucratic overhead, reduce regulation, and so make government smaller and more efficient.

 

[Jon Osterman]

[
I would be fine with it as long as everyone continued to receive the exact same weekly , yearly or monthly income.

Well, that is the idea. Members of society would be given a set amount of money per month irrespective of who they are, what they do or what their income was. Assuming the amount was adequate, this would remove the need for benefits of any kind (unless they had a serious health problem) making it much cheaper to run administratively. It also allows the goverment to remove the tax allowance, so people would start paying tax in the first dollar they earn. It would remove the need for minimum wage legislation (since workers would not need to work and can therefore not be blackmailed by employers), make things easier for small businesses (providing reduced labour costs for unskilled staff), make volunteer work viable, eliminate involuntary homelessness, help working mothers, and reduce college students' study debts.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It all, as part of the beast, leads people away from God, away from Christ,
away from trusting and relying on God,
away from trusting in Jesus' Perfect Faithfulness,
away from knowing and depending on God's Provisions in spirit and in life.

 

[Jon Osterman]

It all, as part of the beast, leads people away from God, away from Christ,
away from trusting and relying on God,
away from trusting in Jesus' Perfect Faithfulness,
away from knowing and depending on God's Provisions in spirit and in life.

Do you mean in the same way that the miracle of feeding the 5,000 with loaves and fish lead people away from Christ by providing for their needs? Was that "part of the beast" too?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you mean in the same way that the miracle of feeding the 5,000 with loaves and fish lead people away from Christ by providing for their needs? Was that "part of the beast" too?

Entirely false analogy. Look at all things as the Father and His Word Say.
The "source" - you completely neglected both the source and who people are trusting -
the difference between you trusting man which brings a curse
vs trusting God which is and brings a blessing.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Hang on. Are you seriously suggesting on a Christian forum that we should not help our fellow man for fear of making him dependent on us rather than God? That is pretty messed up.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why don't you trust God the Father and His Son Jesus, as His Word Says To Do for everyone who seeks to have eternal life , which the world opposes every day ?

Those who trust man/mankind for their help or sustenance are condemned because of their unbelief / for their lack of trusting the Father, because they trust what is opposed to Him instead.

Hang on. Are you seriously suggesting on a Christian forum that we should not help our fellow man for fear of making him dependent on us rather than God? That is pretty messed up.