Unity at the Cost of Truth

[sculleywr]

A lot has been said to me recently in various threads by several people, claiming that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic claim that there is only one Church is an attempt to "divide the faithful". However, this is coming from a group that has, historically, been much more divided and disunited in reality than either Catholic or Orthodox churches. Certainly, there have been divisions FROM Orthodoxy and FROM the Roman Catholic church, but when one looks at the essential beliefs, those within the ranks of either church are united with each other as relates to dogma.

There have been those who have told me that I ought to put aside the dogmatic differences I have with other Christians and embrace what many Protestants are calling a "unity" across denominational divides. However, I find this "unity" to be, at best ephemeral. How can one be united to someone in Christ when they believe that Christ is fundamentally different from what that someone believes?

In a relationship, the unity of husband and wife is built on truth. This truth must be fundamentally the same in order for there to be real unity. But today we find a lot of people saying they have unity, whilst sharing a different truth.

How is this any different from Relativism? I would say it isn't. This is why there is no offer of the Eucharist to non-baptized, or otherwise non-Orthodox people in the Orthodox Church:

1. We do not fundamentally believe the same. If we did, then you would be Orthodox and we wouldn't be asking why you can't receive Communion.

2. For those who believe differently, we are not going to try to find some arbitrary line at which to say "none past this line may receive". For where would we draw the line? If we say Trinitarian, then many heretical groups may also receive. If we say it is according to the view of salvation, then still the majority of Protestants are excluded with the exception of some high church Anglicans. If we say that those who call themselves Christians may receive, then we'll be offering it to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who are, sorry to say, not truly Christians. It is not the task of the Church to navigate the complex inner workings of every single denomination and say who may and may not receive. And would that not, in itself, create yet more division, as those who do not receive would say we are playing favorites with those who may receive?

Overall, it is only truly Unity when it is based both in Practice AND Dogma. This is why the claim that there is ONE Church is true. There is only one Church. There only ever was one Church. Christ did not found many Churches. He founded one single Church in the Apostles and He preserved that Church. It is for us to find that Church and join ourselves to it. Without doing so, we will be uncertain of our true relationship to Christ, for we cannot say that our knowledge of Him has any possibility of completeness.

 

[Greg J.]

A lot has been said to me recently in various threads by several people, claiming that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic claim that there is only one Church is an attempt to "divide the faithful". However, this is coming from a group that has, historically, been much more divided and disunited in reality than either Catholic or Orthodox churches.

ad hominem does not invalidate the proposition.

There have been those who have told me that I ought to put aside the dogmatic differences I have with other Christians and embrace what many Protestants are calling a "unity" across denominational divides. However, I find this "unity" to be, at best ephemeral. How can one be united to someone in Christ when they believe that Christ is fundamentally different from what that someone believes?

In a relationship, the unity of husband and wife is built on truth. This truth must be fundamentally the same in order for there to be real unity. But today we find a lot of people saying they have unity, whilst sharing a different truth.

The only Godly unity that can be had between believers and in a marriage is only found as each having unity with the Holy Spirit. An avenue to that unity is that each be willing to lay down his life for a sinner in another denomination. Love your neighbor as yourself. Any other "unity" is a unity apart from the Holy Spirit.

1. We do not fundamentally believe the same. If we did, then you would be Orthodox and we wouldn't be asking why you can't receive Communion.

People generally do not understand all the doctrine of any denomination, including their own. People usually disagree even with others in their own denomination.

2. For those who believe differently, we are not going to try to find some arbitrary line at which to say "none past this line may receive". For where would we draw the line? If we say Trinitarian, then many heretical groups may also receive. If we say it is according to the view of salvation, then still the majority of Protestants are excluded with the exception of some high church Anglicans. If we say that those who call themselves Christians may receive, then we'll be offering it to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who are, sorry to say, not truly Christians. It is not the task of the Church to navigate the complex inner workings of every single denomination and say who may and may not receive. And would that not, in itself, create yet more division, as those who do not receive would say we are playing favorites with those who may receive?

Overall, it is only truly Unity when it is based both in Practice AND Dogma. This is why the claim that there is ONE Church is true. There is only one Church. There only ever was one Church. Christ did not found many Churches. He founded one single Church in the Apostles and He preserved that Church. It is for us to find that Church and join ourselves to it. Without doing so, we will be uncertain of our true relationship to Christ, for we cannot say that our knowledge of Him has any possibility of completeness.

Jesus only cares about denominational boundaries because humans do. Good-hearted missionaries from different Christian denominations can get along just fine in the mission field. (They even get along with non-Christians!)

Scripture repeatedly separates followers of Christ from everyone else. This is the only church that Scripture refers. Today's "churches" are the product of humans, which will quickly pass away. God does not subscribe to any human institution. The only Biblical church is made up of people who are seeking of Christ. Jesus' words to every church in Revelation were to get each to be the same—faithful to Jesus.

Paul said that his letters should be read in the other churches, because they were in agreement regarding following Jesus—and they all needed encouragement and instruction to help them in their unified goal of knowing Christ. The people who Jesus will count as righteous are those who believe that:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28, 1984 NIV)

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, (Philippians 1:15-18, 1984 NIV)

The value of recognizing who agrees with certain core beliefs is administrative. God judges each person based on their heart, and it has nothing to do with what church they attended, other than whether their church helped them have a Christ-centered, selfless focus or not. Some people focus on their denomination because they seek to feel special and accepted. In Christ, all are special and accepted and this is healed.

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15, 1984 NIV)

 

[sculleywr]

ad hominem does not invalidate the proposition.

The only Godly unity that can be had between believers and in a marriage is only found as each having unity with the Holy Spirit. An avenue to that unity is that each be willing to lay down his life for a sinner in another denomination. Love your neighbor as yourself. Any other "unity" is a unity apart from the Holy Spirit.

People generally do not understand all the doctrine of any denomination, including their own. People usually disagree even with others in their own denomination.

Jesus only cares about denominational boundaries because humans do. Good-hearted missionaries from different Christian denominations can get along just fine in the mission field. (They even get along with non-Christians!)

Scripture repeatedly separates followers of Christ from everyone else. This is the only church that Scripture refers. Today's "churches" are the product of humans, which will quickly pass away. God does not subscribe to any human institution. The only Biblical church is made up of people who are seeking of Christ. Jesus' words to every church in Revelation were to get each to be the same—faithful to Jesus.

Paul said that his letters should be read in the other churches, because they were in agreement regarding following Jesus—and they all needed encouragement and instruction to help them in their unified goal of knowing Christ. The people who Jesus will count as righteous are those who believe that:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28, 1984 NIV)

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, (Philippians 1:15-18, 1984 NIV)

The value of recognizing who agrees with certain core beliefs is administrative. God judges each person based on their heart, and it has nothing to do with what church they attended, other than whether their church helped them have a Christ-centered, selfless focus or not. Some people focus on their denomination because they seek to feel special and accepted. In Christ, all are special and accepted and this is healed.

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” (Mark 10:15, 1984 NIV)

This does not invalidate the fact that we are not going to budge and say that we share some core belief with all Protestants, when in reality, there is no single core belief that is shared even by all Protestants. Even the Trinity comes up for debate, the nature of Christ comes up for debate. the claim for truth in the Orthodox Church is the same as the claim it made when the Gnostics were around, and when the Arians were around. We didn't open the Communion to them, neither will we play around saying we have some unity with Protestants. You must realize that your story of missionaries getting along with each other only really applies within the Protestant groups. Many of those Protestant missionaries spend their time trying to convert the members of the Orthodox Church in areas like Russia and Syria and Pakistan.

The fact is that Protestants talk about unity without really having unity, because even the nature of the Godhead and salvation can be something discussed and doubted among them.

But whether you like it or not, if you take Communion in an Orthodox Church, you must be able to say you believe the whole of the message of the Church you receive in. That is what the prayers say. If you cannot say with us, "I believe that this is truly Your Precious Body and Your precious Blood", then you cannot receive. IF you were to pray that without believing it, then you would have lied to God and made yourself unworthy to receive anyways according to Paul's commands in Corinthians.

Unity of the Dogmas of the Faith is necessary if we are to have unity of the heart.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I believe that the mistake lies in the word "we" in the same sense that Israel as a nation under God is no more and the only covenant now is between Christ and God and to whom Christ shares with. It's beyond me how anyone can think He chooses an exclusive group. smh

 

[sculleywr]

I believe that the mistake lies in the word "we" in the same sense that Israel as a nation under God is no more and the only covenant now is between Christ and God and to whom Christ shares with. It's beyond me how anyone can think He chooses an exclusive group. smh

He chose one in the past. Paul refers to the Church as the new Israel, and the Church is the bride of Christ, not the individual. We are part of a Body, and a Body needs to be on the same page to function properly. If something does not have the same DNA, it is a different thing from the Body. And the DNA of the Body of Christ is the Faith, once delivered for all the Saints. What was delivered by Christ and the Apostles concerning salvation, ecclesiology, and theology is the same today as it was in the time of the Apostles, so by definition, those groups of beliefs that came about by innovation and change of doctrine are not preaching the gospel of Christ.

And how is it any different to say "the Church is the fullness of the Faith" than it is to say "Christ is the exclusive way to salvation"?

 

[Soyeong]

A lot has been said to me recently in various threads by several people, claiming that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic claim that there is only one Church is an attempt to "divide the faithful". However, this is coming from a group that has, historically, been much more divided and disunited in reality than either Catholic or Orthodox churches. Certainly, there have been divisions FROM Orthodoxy and FROM the Roman Catholic church, but when one looks at the essential beliefs, those within the ranks of either church are united with each other as relates to dogma.

There have been those who have told me that I ought to put aside the dogmatic differences I have with other Christians and embrace what many Protestants are calling a "unity" across denominational divides. However, I find this "unity" to be, at best ephemeral. How can one be united to someone in Christ when they believe that Christ is fundamentally different from what that someone believes?

In a relationship, the unity of husband and wife is built on truth. This truth must be fundamentally the same in order for there to be real unity. But today we find a lot of people saying they have unity, whilst sharing a different truth.

How is this any different from Relativism? I would say it isn't. This is why there is no offer of the Eucharist to non-baptized, or otherwise non-Orthodox people in the Orthodox Church:

1. We do not fundamentally believe the same. If we did, then you would be Orthodox and we wouldn't be asking why you can't receive Communion.

2. For those who believe differently, we are not going to try to find some arbitrary line at which to say "none past this line may receive". For where would we draw the line? If we say Trinitarian, then many heretical groups may also receive. If we say it is according to the view of salvation, then still the majority of Protestants are excluded with the exception of some high church Anglicans. If we say that those who call themselves Christians may receive, then we'll be offering it to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who are, sorry to say, not truly Christians. It is not the task of the Church to navigate the complex inner workings of every single denomination and say who may and may not receive. And would that not, in itself, create yet more division, as those who do not receive would say we are playing favorites with those who may receive?

Overall, it is only truly Unity when it is based both in Practice AND Dogma. This is why the claim that there is ONE Church is true. There is only one Church. There only ever was one Church. Christ did not found many Churches. He founded one single Church in the Apostles and He preserved that Church. It is for us to find that Church and join ourselves to it. Without doing so, we will be uncertain of our true relationship to Christ, for we cannot say that our knowledge of Him has any possibility of completeness.

I would say that unity at the cost of truth is no better than truth at the cost of unity. If you can't have fellowship with someone who doesn't agree with you on every issue, then you are going to be by yourself, but if you try to have fellowship with everyone, then you are making yourself open to all sorts of false teachings. Christianity is meant to be practiced as a community of believers, so we need to be willing to look past some differences for the sake of unity, but we also need to willing to not accept other difference for the sake of truth.

 

[toLiJC]

A lot has been said to me recently in various threads by several people, claiming that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic claim that there is only one Church is an attempt to "divide the faithful". However, this is coming from a group that has, historically, been much more divided and disunited in reality than either Catholic or Orthodox churches. Certainly, there have been divisions FROM Orthodoxy and FROM the Roman Catholic church, but when one looks at the essential beliefs, those within the ranks of either church are united with each other as relates to dogma.

There have been those who have told me that I ought to put aside the dogmatic differences I have with other Christians and embrace what many Protestants are calling a "unity" across denominational divides. However, I find this "unity" to be, at best ephemeral. How can one be united to someone in Christ when they believe that Christ is fundamentally different from what that someone believes?

In a relationship, the unity of husband and wife is built on truth. This truth must be fundamentally the same in order for there to be real unity. But today we find a lot of people saying they have unity, whilst sharing a different truth.

How is this any different from Relativism? I would say it isn't. This is why there is no offer of the Eucharist to non-baptized, or otherwise non-Orthodox people in the Orthodox Church:

1. We do not fundamentally believe the same. If we did, then you would be Orthodox and we wouldn't be asking why you can't receive Communion.

2. For those who believe differently, we are not going to try to find some arbitrary line at which to say "none past this line may receive". For where would we draw the line? If we say Trinitarian, then many heretical groups may also receive. If we say it is according to the view of salvation, then still the majority of Protestants are excluded with the exception of some high church Anglicans. If we say that those who call themselves Christians may receive, then we'll be offering it to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who are, sorry to say, not truly Christians. It is not the task of the Church to navigate the complex inner workings of every single denomination and say who may and may not receive. And would that not, in itself, create yet more division, as those who do not receive would say we are playing favorites with those who may receive?

Overall, it is only truly Unity when it is based both in Practice AND Dogma. This is why the claim that there is ONE Church is true. There is only one Church. There only ever was one Church. Christ did not found many Churches. He founded one single Church in the Apostles and He preserved that Church. It is for us to find that Church and join ourselves to it. Without doing so, we will be uncertain of our true relationship to Christ, for we cannot say that our knowledge of Him has any possibility of completeness.

i am sorry to say that, unfortunately, there has visibly been a significant lack of organization in many churches since who knows how long ago, even i personally had the chance, when i visited various churches years ago, to see how within a few years many people came and went, usually soon afterward, when they found out that the churches they visited are much below the standard of what is exemplified/presented in the biblical books of the New Testament as up to standard - they found cowardice, incompetence and helplessness in the regular worshipers and faced not a little (unfounded) hostility against irreligious people/world from them - i believe that was due to a lack of good organization (in those churches), i saw how the leaders of those churches tolerated all kinds of arbitrariness as if for no other reason than to gather as many people as possible for their worship regardless of whether all of them conform(ed) to the Holy Commandments of God or not, and i didn't see anyone there teaching people to practice or practicing the faith right - there was a lack of set routine in regard to proper instruction and keeping of discipline - so there was definitely a need of reform

and in such circumstances it would be better for the worshipers to be careful not to follow what doesn't lead them to the true heaven of God and Jesus

Blessings