United Socialist States of America - USSA

[CabVet]

Sometimes I wonder if people really know what socialism is.

 

[SharonL]

Even if you don't know what it is, the example around the world has been failure - why do we even want to go near it.

 

[stamperben]

Even if you don't know what it is, the example around the world has been failure - why do we even want to go near it.

Yet we've seen that it does work in many places. Examples have been given in this very thread about how socialism works in many European countries. What many do not seem to grasp is that there's a difference between socialist practices in capitalist countries and the failure of the strict communist experiment of the USSR.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What many do not seem to grasp is that there's a difference between socialist practices in capitalist countries and the failure of the strict communist experiment of the USSR.

Very crucial distinction and thank you for noting that. I'd add that there's also a very big difference between communism and the Stalinism that was done in the name of it/co-opting it for differing purposes. For if going by what is seen in history, even China itself (a Communist nation) is doing VERY well in their communism even as they added aspects of capitalism into it.

 

[SolomonVII]

I would agree that Western Europe is the model that the American left is trying to emulate. This is their vision of a better America.

A further question becomes whether, over time, the bigger government required by the socialist state does not seriously begin too encroach upon individual freedoms?

 

[stamperben]

Very crucial distinction and thank you for noting that. I'd add that there's also a very big difference between communism and the Stalinism that was done in the name of it/co-opting it for differing purposes. For if going by what is seen in history, even China itself (a Communist nation) is doing VERY well in their communism even as they added aspects of capitalism into it.

Then you can take North Korea and Cuba and compare the two. Cuba is now going in the direction of allowing private property and some free enterprise again. No. Korea? I don't see it. Cuba is opening up and sees the need for investment, both foreign and domestic.

'Only political barriers have stood in the way of Cuba realizing its economic potential and these barriers are beginning to fall. Cuba is positioned to become the future economic powerhouse of the Caribbean. It is without doubt the most exciting new market in the world,' a spokesman said.

Indeed since Fidel Castro resigned as President in February after half a century in power, there has been a change in the government's attitude to property ownership.

One of Fidel's first acts after seizing power in 1959 was to expropriate private property. But under his brother Raul, foreign and private investment is now being actively encouraged and the Cuban government wants to take the country's £1 billion a year tourism industry upmarket and away from the current all inclusive resorts.

From Communism to Capitalism - Cuba opening up to property investment

 

[NightHawkeye]

Not really, as alternative viewpoints are never an issue..and currently, where things are at seem to often happen (as they have before) when others make spurrious claims/have no reference to back them up and thus resort to ad-homimen in focusing on posters via exaggeration rather than showing their facts substantiated. Where scripture is selectively ignored in order to make a point or the immediate context avoided, it is not "manifest intolerance" to say it lacks any sense of credibility or logic...for many diverse viewpoints can be advocated and yet all be united in seeking to address scripture with scripture and from scripture....not make up things as they go along/violate basic rules of hermenutics that the early church was never for.

LOL ... don't believe that I made an ad-hom argument in any form, Easy G.

I simply didn't accept your assertion that the events described in Micah are as per your preferred eschatological reasoning. I hope I made that clear. It was not an ad-hom, though you might consider that your characterization of it as such is projection on your part.

If one supports Manifest Destinity ...

Like I suggested earlier, Easy G, you might consider addressing what was stated rather than developing elaborate constructs which are largely disconnected from what was actually said.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

LOL ... don't believe that I made an ad-hom argument in any form, Easy G.

Incorrect again...based on several things that were stated from yourself on what I said even when it wasn't. Try again next time with that

I simply didn't accept your assertion that the events described in Micah are as per your preferred eschatological reasoning I hope I made that clear. It was not an ad-hom, though you might consider that your characterization of it as such is projection on your part.

Incorrct again, as you didn't accept anything in regards to what the CHurch/proper Biblical interrpretation has said for ages...and claimed a view that is relatively new yet inconsistent when trying to make scripture say what it doesn't with the view that the U.S.A is the New Israel/the Israel mentioned in Micah. The view that Manifest Destiny was about when trying to justify every act of expansion in the U.S and claim that it is the nation meant to bring hope to the nations. One can argue as if its otherwise (equivocation) but it doesn't change the facts. Micah has never been about the U.S and it's a hack job trying to make it out as such apart from the immediate context and the audience being talked to.

Like I suggested earlier, Easy G, you might consider addressing what was state

Did..and as suggested earlier, NightHawkeye, you might consider studying history/hermenutics and basic facts as it concerns the Judaic worldview and what has been said on Manifest Destinity/the error of trying to ascribe the U.S as the new Israel. Seeing that you've avoid addressing what was stated at several points and tried to change the subject midway (red herring), it'd also behoove you to take your own advice first before trying to give things out to others. It doesn't make for good argument.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Incorrect again...based on several things that were stated from yourself on what I said even when it wasn't. Try again next time with that

LOL ... refuting your assertions does not constitute an ad-hominem.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

you can take North Korea and Cuba and compare the two. Cuba is now going in the direction of allowing private property and some free enterprise again. No. Korea? I don't see it. Cuba is opening up and sees the need for investment, both foreign and domestic.

For some reason, it seemed like Cuba was a bit inevitable as it concerns asking for foreign/domestic investment...but they've done good without a lot of things. Their healtcare system has always been amazing to many...yet amazing that their technology concerning cars still seems within the era of the 50s/60s

From Communism to Capitalism - Cuba opening up to property investment

Very amazing article and thanks for sharing it It seems that for many commumist countries, State Capitalism is the way they tend to go when allowing private property/free enterprise within limits. And Cuba has lived that out in spades in many ways even though others debate the issue ( more here, here and here/here and here at Cuba and the 'updating of socialism' | Red Pepper )

Castro's Cuba - Cuba
Capitalism, Cuba, and Castro: A Report from Recent Travels | Yuri N. Maltsev​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

LOL ... refuting your assertions does not constitute an ad-hominem.

Lol. When you avoid dealing with what's said and fail to give backing on it in favor of claiming what hasn't been said, that's ad-hominem Refuting doesn't mean giving a response alone, as proper refutation deals with addressing the facts/showing those facts to be established based on historical review. Thus far, none of that has been done on your part..and such has occurred before in other discussion.

Again, try better next time

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Cuba is now going in the direction of allowing private property and some free enterprise again. No. Korea? I don't see it. Cuba is opening up and sees the need for investment, both foreign and domestic.

From Communism to Capitalism - Cuba opening up to property investment

One has to wonder what the U.S would do if there was still a revolutionist spirit in Cuba even when it benefits from capitalistic aspects and yet fundamentally disagrees with the U.S

 

[NightHawkeye]

Incorrct again, as you didn't accept anything in regards to what the CHurch/proper Biblical interrpretation has said for ages...

Sigh ... many quite different eschatological interpretations have been made throughout the years by numerous religious entities.

... and claimed a view that is relatively new yet inconsistent when trying to make scripture say what it doesn't with the view that the U.S.A is the New Israel/the Israel mentioned in Micah.

Ahh ... so you now admit that I am not the only one who has made such observations.

At least now I understand why the argument you have been making had little correlation with the words I used.

The view that Manifest Destiny was about when trying to justify every act of expansion in the U.S and claim that it is the nation meant to bring hope to the nations. One can argue as if its otherwise (equivocation) but it doesn't change the facts.

I never made the Manifest Destiny argument ...

Micah has never been about the U.S and it's a hack job trying to make it out as such apart from the immediate context and the audience being talked to.

To claim that Bible prophecy was directed to the immediate audience is to say that the Bible itself was simply addressing the immediate concerns of the people at some particular point in time.

Did..and as suggested earlier, NightHawkeye, you might consider studying history/hermenutics and basic facts as it concerns the Judaic worldview and what has been said on Manifest Destinity/the error of trying to ascribe the U.S as the new Israel. Seeing that you've avoid addressing what was stated at several points, it'd also behoove you to take your own advice first before trying to give things out to others. It doesn't make for good argument.

You advice is noted ...

Lol. When you avoid dealing with what's said and fail to give backing on it in favor of claiming what hasn't been said, that's ad-hominem Refuting doesn't mean giving a response alone, as proper refutation deals with addressing the facts/showing those facts to be established based on historical review. Thus far, none of that has been done on your part..and such has occurred before in other discussion.

Again, try better next time

LOL ... the irony in your advice is noted as well.

Please note again that I never made the "Manifest Destiny" argument ... nor was that my intent.

All I did was point out some clear observations on the OBVIOUS. Since you could not refute the OBVIOUS, you then proceeded to destroy the "Manifest Destiny" argument. Next time pay attention to what is actually said ... and try to avoid constructing elaborate strawmen.

Thanks.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sigh ... many quite different eschatological interpretations have been made throughout the years by numerous religious entities.

Sigh...many differing views have also been debunked as being against scripture on multiple points and have since been dismissed. The fact that one's out there doesn't make it accurate, as is the case with the erroneous view of Manifest Destiny/America being the New Israel described in the OT.

Ahh ... so you now admit that I am not the only one who has made such observations At least now I understand why the argument you have been making had little correlation with the words I used.

Incorrect, again, as it was already noted many postings ago that others throughout history made such observations---and were debunked on it multiple times as it concerns the lack of scriptural consistency as well as lack of understanding for scriptural concepts well known within the Judaic worldview. Gotta do better on your part with addressing what was said in the context it was said in....as the deflections/attempt at misdirection are a bit humorous.

I never made the Manifest Destiny argument ...

Another form of equivocation, as the Manifest Destinity argument relies on the interpretation of trying to infer the U.S into texts that deal with the Lord speaking to NAtional Israel----something argued pointlessly multiple times by yourself when taking scriptures dealing with the Israelite nation and trying to claim that it was in regards to the U.S.A (be it in the erroneous claim that the U.S beats nations into submission like Israel or even trying to bring Assyria into it to mean the Middle East in relation to the U.S today).

To claim that Bible prophecy was directed to the immediate audience is to say that the Bible itself was simply addressing the immediate concerns of the people at some particular point in time.

Incorrect, as the Bible often address other groups outside of the immediate--but that is only within certain settings and context when the immediate context/setting is plain. The Bible prophecies in Micah were both immediate as well as futuristic since Assyria didn't die in a day and was later taken out decades later after the prophecy was made...with other prophecies as it concerns the Messiah also coming to pass much later as well, as the context/setting show. One of the basic rules in hermenutics and that credible Biblical scholars have accepted above other nut jobs who try to read everything into scripture that's not there. The immediate context/setting and later commentary/reference from other prophets and leaders gives much info on the subject of Biblical prophecy....not erroneous views made centuries after trying to make text say what it doesn't.

As said earlier, the argumentation you're using is Reductio ad absurdum, which is is not a good strategy on your part for the point. To make the point (as said before), in formal logic, the reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate argument and follows the form that if the premises are assumed to be true it necessarily leads to an absurd (false) conclusion and therefore one or more premises must be false. The term is now often used to refer to the abuse of this style of argument, by stretching the logic in order to force an absurd conclusion. For example a UFO enthusiast can argue that if I am skeptical about the existence of alien visitors, I must also be skeptical of the existence of the Great Wall of China, since I have not personally seen either. This is a false reductio ad absurdum because he is ignoring evidence other than personal eyewitness evidence, and also logical inference. In short, being skeptical of UFO’s does not require rejecting the existence of the Great Wall.

The same principle applies here as it concerns the issue of seeing fulfillment of prophecy in scripture in the immediate setting it occurred in, regarding Micah 4-5 having many things occur within decades whereas other things took centuries to come to passs. Just because one believes many aspects of prophecy occurred in the immediate setting doesn't logically mean one can assume that the conclusion of that is equivalent to claiming that the "Bible itself was simply addressing the immediate concerns of the people at some particular point in time." 2 Timothy 3:15-17 makes plain where all scripture is useful and God-breathed, yet within that was the concept that there were always DIFFERING Categories of scripture (i.e. Torah, the Writings, the Prophets, Allegories, Poetry, Wisdom Literature, etc) and rules for the differing applications of such.

Please not that I never made the "Manifest Destiny" argument ... nor was that my intent.

Again, equivocation--as one doesn't argue in trying to use scripture directed at Israel and then infer that the U.S is the Israel being spoken to in the future exclusively without doing exactly as Manifest Destiny theologians did when doing the same. And the same is emphasized everytime one has to resort to arguments of "Well, look at all the good the U.S has done in the world and brought nations together" in trying to make it out as if the U.S has a place in Biblical Prophecy/being deemed as Israel just as Manifest Theologians do.It is what it is...

All I did was point out some clear observations of the OBVIOUS.

Wrong again, as what was obvious was that you had no clue as to Biblical history when it came to obvious things scholars/historians have noted repeatedly in regards to the text of Micah when seeing who Assyria was and who Babylon was---seeing that many texts were selectively avoided in order to support a case that the U.S was the Israel being noted. That's obvious error and no more "obvious" than it's obvious that the scorpions tormmenting others in Revelations HAVE to be helicopters ...in the spirit of Hal Lindsey and many other end-times theologians trying to read back into scripture things that were never there.

Since you could not refute the OBVIOUS, you then proceeded to destroy the "Manifest Destiny" argument.

Another error, as much of the things you noted were refuted were already addressed point for point. That you cannot deal with it shows the obvious reality of choosing to resort to ad-hominem via selective argumentation/begging the question (ii.e. circular logic).

Next time pay attention to what is actually said

... and try to avoid constructing elaborate strawmen.

Thanks.

Sadly, you've haven't followed your own advice. I can see why others have noted this about you in other discussion when it comes to inability to deal with facts and argue against what was never in view. Thanks.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Sigh...many differing views have also been debunked as being against scripture on multiple points and have since been dismissed. The fact that one's out there doesn't make it accurate, as is the case with the erroneous view of Manifest Destiny/America being the New Israel described in the OT.

LOL ... Manifest Destiny.

I never made that argument.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

LOL ... Manifest Destiny.

I never made that argument.

Again, another equivocation and demonstration of lack in understanding terms when it comes to failing to see where Manifest DESTINY Theologians argue using the same hermenutic as you have in trying to prop up America as being the best/being akin to OT Israel and meant to have the prophecies applied to OT Israel applied to it.

It is what it is, even when you're unable to address that simple reality Will give ya about 2-3 more postings before going to ignore altogether on the issue since enough has been said/addressed fully and too much has been avoided.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sometimes I wonder if people really know what socialism is.

I often wonder the same as well...

 

[NightHawkeye]

Again, another equivocation and demonstration of lack in understanding terms when it comes to failing to see where Manifest DESTINY Theologians argue using the same hermenutic as you have in trying to prop up America as being the best/being akin to OT Israel and meant to have the prophecies applied to OT Israel applied to it.

It is what it is, even when you're unable to address that simple reality

Sigh ...

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the most powerful nation that the world has ever known.

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the wealthiest nation the world has ever known.

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the free-est nation the world has ever known.

Similarly, it is not MANIFEST DESTINY to make numerous observations about the USA which are accurate, even when such observation place the USA in a category very much by itself in recorded history.

Such things are merely observations on the OBVIOUS.


QED.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sigh ...

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the most powerful nation that the world has ever known.

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the wealthiest nation the world has ever known.

It is not MANIFEST DESTINY to observe that the USA is the free-est nation the world has ever known.




Similarly, it is not MANIFEST DESTINY to make numerous observations about the USA which are accurate, even when such observation place the USA in a category very much by itself in recorded history.

Such things are merely observations on the OBVIOUS.


QED
.

Another error, as Manifest Destiny theologians have all noted the same things...in connection with their arguments that the U.S must be Israel from the OT and justified in the way it has expanded around the world/assimilated all types of people into its own (as you have already argued. No amount of protesting will change that obvious fact that has been noted multiple times over, including times when people tried the same argument with Micah 4-5 and other texts dealing with Israel and tried to infer the U.S.A into it in justification of its actions/pointing out the good it has done (as you did earlier in making talk of the world being a better place because of the U.S and trying to use Micah 4-5 to support it).

Minus the fact that certain obvervations were blantantly off (such as the claim that "USA is the wealthiest nation the world has ever known and the most powerful nation the world has ever known" since other empires were often known to be the wealthiest of their day/in competition with the U.S---be it the Byzantine Empire or the British Empire or the Roman Empire and man others)...it is equivocation to claim one doesn't support Manifest Destiny when they make arguments that are exactly the same ones used by it before. That obvious fact has already been pointed out multiple times in multiple places by many.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Another error, as Manifest Destiny theologians have all noted the same things...in connection with their arguments that the U.S must be Israel from the OT and justified in the way it has expanded around the world/assimilated all types of people into its own (as you have already argued. No amount of protesting will change that obvious fact.

LOL ... you keep using that term MANIFEST DESTINY and desparately attempting to link it to my observations. Weird ...