United Socialist States of America - USSA

Gxg (G²)

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the mess does seem to be worldwide - no-one immune.

Honestly, I think we seem to have a choice between slow death and re-set; what the reset would be is hard to tell. But certainly this present situation is unsustainable.
The "re-set" may not be pretty, as it seems that the levels of immorality in the land would need to be addressed rather than focusing solely on the economy since the economy itself is often dependent on other markets that rely upon harming/abusing others (even when it's not talked about during talks of "fixing the economy") ...and a nation established in unrighteousness can only flourish for so long before it crumbles.

Others may disagree...but as it concerns the destruction of the U.S, I'd dare say that much of it is due to how FreeMasonry was accepted by the Founders in our country since day 1---something else that has NEVER been Christian in our nation and has harmed the U.S since it was allowed and participated in---no different than Israel when it allowed idolatry and witchcraft into the land. And it's present everywhere. It's no surprise that the land has always had the drama it has and has landed up where it is today since many cursings were brought in from the very beginnings-----for it was already an issue when a curse was brought due to the bloodhshed/mistreatment of other groups in the U.S (something many noted would bring God's judgement)....but the evil of Freemasonry sealed a lot.

And when seeing many global issues arising, you'll often see FreeMasonry arising in the background as being connected to and a part of it. For more:



For reference:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have the Blu Ray!
It's an awesome movie. I cried at the end of it seeing how powerful it was and how it reminded me that no matter where the world turns, the Bible/Book is central and things will always be under the Lord's control.

It's why believers in many settings around the world do not trip at the direction of their nations when they truly understand that the kingdom they preach is NOT of this world and cannot be stopped.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Easy G (G²);61448048 said:
Seeing that Micah was dealing specifically with views relevant for Jewish believers in the Messiah, it's very precarious trying to take the text/read back into it the coutry o fthe U.S since it never had it in mind and there was more said besides that when seeing the context. There's a reason why it was often critiqued and condemned whenever people in the U.S claimed that the USA was the "New Israel/Zion" even though it was far from being remotely concerned or connected with the Jewish/Hebraic worldview of the scriptures and often mistreated Jews.
LOL ... I merely pointed out the obvious, Easy G. You are perfectly free to draw your own conclusions. I will point out, however, that the references to the Messiah were in regards to the last days and the FACT that it would be the Messiah which would maintain peace in those days ...
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
The "Assyrian" prophecy here is one that even devout Bible scholars admit did not happen in antiquity ... though some might find it eerily fitting to today's circumstances. The reference to the land of Nimrod is a clearly symbolic reference as is the land of Assyria.
Easy G (G²);61448048 said:
The "last days" issue is indeed a subject of debate that has lasted for a long time. However, the U.S has never been a "Chrisitan" culture..although what it has had are Christian principles. As it stands, many other empires had the same dynamics as it concerns using Christian principles and yet being far from Christian/Christ like and related to Christ while uniting many groups together. The British Empire comes immediately to mind, as it was once said that the sun never sets on it due to how it literally circled the entire known world and did colonization practically everywhere when it came to assimilating groups into its own.

The logic used to make the U.S a "daughter of Zion" also applies to every other imperialistic, expansionist and dominant empire on the planet that has ever used the name of Christ at the forefront.
Yes, but no other nation has had people "flowing" into it like the USA has. In that respect Britain exported culture rather than imported. The imports into Britain were relatively few ... as one would expect given the tiny island nation that it is. No other nation has ever even remotely fit the prophecies of Micah 4 and 5, except in a most figurative sense. Bible scholars that I've heard consider the Assyrian to be a most literal prophecy.

The argument about the USA not being a Christian nation is essentially moot. As already mentioned the culture of the USA is Judeo-Christian. That's just a FACT. That is simply the nation's basis ... which is to say the USA is a daughter of Zion. :thumbsup:
Easy G (G²);61448048 said:
It could also be called ascribing to the text what isn't there and being selective with how it's applied.
LOL ... I stopped with half of Micah 4 only because I thought the rest would be too much ... not because it is any less applicable.
Easy G (G²);61448048 said:
Considering that there were specific. Micah was written during the era of II Kings (right around the time of Uzziah) and an era where prosperity and nationalism were a BIG deal since the nation of GOd was prospering and yet putting confidence in its military might as well as neglecting things of the Lord. And the prophet spoke actively against that.
There are many reasons to rally for Israel just as there are many reasons to be against it. Regardless, what is clear is that weaknesses of the U.S often cannot be avoided as it concerns consequences in choosing to either deny them or avoid them and act as if nothing will happen...and the example of what happened to Israel in the OT is proof of that when it came to enemies rising to come against that nation and it was simultaneously the case that the nations themselves were harmed while Israel was also harmed for never addressing their issues.
Many have tried to place the prophecies in other times, yet the "Assyrian" prophesy simply has not fit prior times.
Easy G (G²);61448048 said:
Dismissing the Lord never works out well. That said, it's sad enough to see how the U.S has been doing that in multiple ways since day one of the nation.
Yes ... and No.

The Christian denominations have always been at odds with each other. This nation found a way that they could coexist. In that respect this nation is akin to the glass half-full. Similarly, in the middle of the twentieth century after the plagues of that century, this nation honored God as never before in the pledge of allegiance and by setting God's name on all its currency. One could say that the glass simply continued to fill.

That, of course, is another Biblical parallel ... that people drawer nearer to God during times of plague.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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LOL ... I merely pointed out the obvious, Easy G. You are perfectly free to draw your own conclusions. I will point out, however, that the references to the Messiah were in regards to the last days and the FACT that it would be the Messiah which would maintain peace in those days ...
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
LOL The "Last Days" being seen within the context of Jewish culture, which did not have in mind the U.S.A nor the concept that the U.S would be what is being talked about. Again, NightHawkeye, here is a context and it does violence to the text trying to ascribe Micah to the U.S just as it does violence to Revelations doing what many end times loons do in thinking the scorpions that torment others are helicopters:D

This goes back to the entire concept of "End Times" and Last days since the early church was already for the mindset that many of the things you're trying to jig-saw together already happened at the rise of Christ (who in his appearance was Messiah and brought PEACE to the nations by His death/resurrection). This is what Micah 5:1-6 is focused on, as it is a prophetic announcement of SALVATION. The passage strengthens the hope of the people as they anticipate a new royal Messiah, the ideal leader of the world (not one who came from the U.S.A :). Jerusalem's leaders were concerned about wealth and position, but Micah prophesied that mighty Jerusalem, with all its wealth and power, would be besieged and destroyed. Its king could not save it....but in contrast, Bethlehem, a tiny town, would be the birthplace of the only king who could save His people. This deliverr, the Messiah, would be born as a baby in Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) and eventually reign as the eternal King. Chapter 5 of Micah is one of the clearest OT prophecies of Christ's coming.

The key descriptive phrase is "and he will be their peace" (Micah 5:5). In one of CHrist's final talks he said "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you..I do not give it you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." (John 14:27). Because of CHrist first coming, we have the opportunity to experience peace with God with no more fear of judgment and no more conflict and guilt. At His Second coming, all wars and weapons will be destroyed and all nations will have to repent for not serving Him ...which is what Micah 4:3-5 was focused on. In Micah 4:1, the phrase "in the last days" describes the days when God will reign over His perfect kingdom (Micah 4:1-8). The "mountain of the Lord" is Mount Zion......and verses 9-13 of Micah 4 predicted the Bablylonian captivity in 586 B.C, even BEFORE Babylon became a powerful empire. As said before, the context of Micah was in the time of great prosperity for Israel---and Assyria was one of the tormentors of Israel and Judah, with Israel being taken into captivity in II Kings 17 before Assyria itself was wiped out by Babylon. The Book of Jonah was actually set around the time of II Kings 14:25, as he preached to Assyria before it began to be on the rise and was well known for its wickedness

In Micah 4:9-Micah 5:15, the background was the wars of Hezekiah's day..as he waged war on the Assyrians often. The Assyrians under Sennacherib captured 40 cities of Judah and recieved tribute from Hezekian (II Kings 18:13-16)....and because they were such a threat to the nation of Israel, it's why there was prophecy against them. The king of Assyria sent forces to besiege Jerusalem, demoralize its people and try to persuade them to hand over their king (II Kings 18:19-35, II Chronicles 32:10-19, Isaiah 36:4-20). The prophet Isaiah encouraged Hezekiah by prophesying the deliverance of Jerusalem and the return of Assyria's king to his homeland. The Angel of the Lord entered Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 soldiers.

The "Assyrian" prophecy here is one that even devout Bible scholars admit did not happen in antiquity ...
Plenty of Biblical scholars have actually noted where it DID happen in antiquity already. As it stands, it has also been said in history/Jewish scholarship that Micah 5:5 mention of Assyria represents all the enemies of God's people in every age....seeing how nations often came to represent people all around as opposed to being focused SOLELY on the nation. No different than it was often in other accounts.

no other nation has had people "flowing" into it like the USA has.


In that respect Britain exported culture rather than imported. The imports into Britain were relatively few ... as one would expect given the tiny island nation that it is. No other nation has ever even remotely fit the prophecies of Micah 4 and 5, except in a most figurative sense. Bible scholars that I've heard consider the Assyrian to be a most literal prophecy.
Incorrect, seeing that people going into a nation has nothing to do with showing where a text from Jewish culture deals with that nation---for the text of Micah was on the nation focused on the Messiah/God's law---and unless the U.S. is a theocracy like OT Israel (or like the nation the Lord wanted), it's moot trying to bring in the U.S. The US exported culture and had others develop in it JUST AS Britan, unless one wants to reivent history when it came to the TransAtlantic slave trade and the usage of people from all parts of Africa into its borders


Britain had EXTENSIVE imports as well as exports and that's well documented, be in its work in Asia (i.e. China, India, etc) or Africa or the Caribbean/West Indies and many other places....including North America. They often took people from other nations and many often found work in the empire and found they could allow their culture to flourish within boundaries (just as the U.S did with Native Americans and Chinese Americans--the latter with regards to their building the Transcontinental Railroad System---and many other groups).

That said (As said before), it's bad logic/scriptural application trying to remotely fit the U.S into Micah 4-5 divorced from the text and the culture and how other biblical scholars interpreted it.

Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Imp do that kind of stuff and it's one of the reasons why it's not often considered.

The argument about the USA not being a Christian nation is essentially moot. As already mentioned the culture of the USA is Judeo-Christian. That's just a FACT. That is simply the nation's basis ... which is to say the USA is a daughter of Zion. :thumbsup:
Don't lie to yourself, Bruh--as the Judaic worldview had very specific definition for what it meant to be a child of Zion. The U.S has never fit, the biggest issue being that it doesn't follow God's Laws or standards...and having Christian language/principles no more makes it a daughter of Zion than Imperialist Britan was for its actions.

When one can show from BIBLICAL History as well as the Law that the U.S even qualified for being a daughter of Zion (despite where God already said true sons/daughters didn't promote denying His Deity, discrimination, lack of concern for the poor, love for neighbor, Sabbath, etc), then you can talk on what is or isn't "Fact"--but thus far, you've not done that much and do the same as nearly every other "End-Times" fanatic trying to make it out as if Israel is the U.S..and seeing how the Lord even told his own people Israel/Judah tht it took more than using his name/godly language to qualify as true Daugther/Son of Zion, the U.S doesn't even come close centuries removed from the context and divorced from the heart of God.

Try better next time rather than doing the puesdo history :thumbsup:

LOL ... I stopped with half of Micah 4 only because I thought the rest would be too much ... not because it is any less applicable.
Doesn't matter where you stopped, as you were already divorced from Biblical scholarship in trying to make the text apply to the U.S.A despite what others in history have said and despite the original context of the text. It'd behoove you to actually learn Jewish/Hebraic studies as it concerns prophecy before trying to make something fit that doesn't;)


Many have tried to place the prophecies in other times, yet the "Assyrian" prophesy simply has not fit prior times.
Already, this has already been debunked by other scholars and it is not accurate at all when dealing with the rest of history and antiquity.


The Christian denominations have always been at odds with each other. This nation found a way that they could coexist. In that respect this nation is akin to the glass half-full. Similarly, in the middle of the twentieth century after the plagues of that century, this nation honored God as never before in the pledge of allegiance and by setting God's name on all its currency. One could say that the glass simply continued to fill.
Another error, as a nation finding ways to co-exist DOESN'T mean it exists based on what God said in His Laws. Period. Free Masonry which was present since day one, alongside genocide of Native Peoples and rebellion was already a good bit away from what the Lord said....and people need to stop kidding themselves on it when seeing what the scriptures actually say, from the OT to the NT, about what it means to be a child of GOD/Christian or a believer.

As said earlier, plenty others from the beginning of the nation's history pointed out where it was far from Christ and the Christianity it claimed to have was essentially apostate. Fredrick Douglass noted that in spades when it came to the ways the U.S never took into account other groups who were oppressed in the name of Christ and portrayed Christianity within Eurocentric ideology.

God's Kingdom is ultimately NOT OF THIS World...and the same thing as it concerns the NEW Jerusalem/City of God that He has called His people to go to. It takes more than pledging/saying "In God We Trust" to be a believer of God...just as it was when the Lord denoucned His people simply because they did sacrifices/used His name even when they didn't honor Him in practice.

Gotta do better next time than trying to white-wash the U.S and avoid dealing with what the scripture defines as religion reflective of who the Lord is.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Easy G (G²);61448418 said:
LOL The "Last Days" being seen within the context of Jewish culture, which did not have in mind the U.S.A nor the concept that the U.S would be what is being talked about. Again, there is a context and it does violence to the text trying to ascribe Micah to the U.S just as it does violence to Revelations doing what many end times loons do in thinking the scorpions that torment others are helicopters:D
LOL ... Did someone mention helicopters?
The Book of Revelation Is Happening NOW! You Must See This! The 7 Trumpets Are Blowing! - YouTube
Easy G (G²);61448418 said:
This goes back to the entire concept of "End Times" and Last days since the early church was already for the mindset that many of the things you're trying to jig-saw together already happened at the rise of Christ (who in his appearance was Messiah and brought PEACE to the nations by His death/resurrection).
There are several schools of thought regarding the fulfillment of prophecy, Easy G. You are welcome to the interpretation that it is all symbolic without literal fulfillment, or that it all transpired in antiquity.

It must be noted, however, that neither of those constitutes a majority opinion on the subject.
Easy G (G²);61448418 said:
YWrong, seeing that people going into a nation has nothing to do with showing where a text from Jewish culture deals with that nation---for the text of Micah was on the nation focused on the Messiah/God's law---and unless the U.S. is a theocracy like OT Israel (or like the nation the Lord wanted), it's moot trying to bring in the U.S. The US exported culture and had others develop in it JUST AS Britan, unless one wants to reivent history when it came to the TransAtlantic slave trade and the usage of people from all parts of Africa into its borders

Britain had EXTENSIVE imports as well as exports and that's well documented, be in its work in Asia (i.e. China, India, etc) or Africa and the U.S. As said before, it's bad logic/scriptural application trying to remotely fit the U.S into Micah 4-5 divorced from the text and the culture and how other biblical scholars interpreted it.

Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Imp do that kind of stuff and it's one of the reasons why it's not often considered.

Don't lie to yourself, Bruh--as the Judaic worldview had very specific definition for what it meant to be a child of Zion. The U.S has never fit, the biggest issue being that it doesn't follow God's Laws or standards...and having Christian language/principles no more makes it a daughter of Zion than Imperialist Britan was for its actions.

When one can show from BIBLICAL History as well as the Law that the U.S even qualified for being a daughter of Zion (despite where God already said true sons/daughters didn't promote denying His Deity, discrimination, lack of concern for the poor, love for neighbor, Sabbath, etc), then you can talk on what is or isn't "Fact"--but thus far, you've not done that much and do the same as nearly every other "End-Times" fanatic trying to make it out as if Israel is the U.S..and seeing how the Lord even told his own people Israel/Judah tht it took more than using his name/godly language to qualify as true Daugther/Son of Zion, the U.S doesn't even come close centuries removed from the context and divorced from the heart of God.

Try better next time rather than doing the puesdo history :thumbsup:
Might I suggest that next time you respond to the actual words I posted rather than concocting arguments about things which were not said. Otherwise, it's not really much of a conversation.

Just sayin ... :)
 
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Nah...just that making commentary by trying to read the U.S.A into every prophecy regarding the nation of Israel is what others do with the helicopter prophecies.


There are several schools of thought regarding the fulfillment of prophecy, Easy
NightHawkeye, there are also multiple other schools that have often debukned throughotu history and called out the others that try to force forms of prophecy into the Hebraic worldview without actually seeing what they said about their scriptures/prophecies in the setting they were in. Many views of prophecy were developed within a discriminatory mindset and certain things were read into them at the exclusion of the rest of scripture, such as what has happened with British Israelism in claiming that all Caucasians are the true Israelites/other groups are cursed like Cannan. For others working within the Jewish world, some of those schools of thought have been damaging. Replacement Theology being one of them and the other being the view in line with Manifest Destiny ( more here Dominionism as well) which claims the U.S is the New Israel and is justified in the many instances of land stolen or people extermined wholesale because it was a "God GIven right" to expand/be a "Daughter of Zion" in conquest. Mormonism believes the same ideology. The view of seeing the U.S as described in Micah 4-5 fits that worldview and has been addressed before.

The Puritans originally came to America in order to gain freedom of religion, freedom from the persecution that they were experiencing at the hands of an antagonistic Church of England. And so they fled. In their fleeing they encountered all kinds of hardship and tribulation, and yet they endured and finally made it to the ‘Promised Land’. It was these kinds of experiences, and the relative success of establishing a new nation, that imbued Puritan pastors and theologians with the notion that Divine Providence had carried them into the new land of promise. Indeed, many (if not all) of the Puritans believed that they were truly the new Israel of God, and that they had been given Divine sanction to sack the native Americans (like the original Israel did with the Canaanites), and take their lands (manifest destiny)

Many tend to have a postmillennial view of heritage that believes that America has its rootage in Divine favor and blessedness—as God’s covenant people [As a side note, the interesting thing about this is that most American's who appeal to this age as constituting a "Christian" heritage to our nation are not postmillennial, but premillennial dispensationalists, which is completely at odds with postmil thought]. And it is this kind of mindset that believes that America is exceptional, that is, because we have been blessed of God (as his covenant nation), and thus we can offer things to the rest of the world (even if that means that we, in a utilitarian and pragmatic way impose ourselves on other nations for the greater good; i.e. which is the preservation of God’s new Israel, America) that the rest of the world needs. By the logic of others, we are the dispensers of God’s covenant promises after all
icon_wink.gif
. But people fail to realize that other nations have been exceptional as well and it's theological error trying to assume that a nation being exceptional at many points is either exceptional at ALL points or "exceptional" according to the standards of the Lord.

The U.S has never, at ANY point, been God’s covenant nation who operates with Divine sanction. That was reserved for Israel...and even then, the U.S has already had a wide range of things done in the name of the nation that've never been a part of God's heart ( more shared in #501 )

A school of thought existing doesn't equate to it being historically valid or accurate. It simply means that it exists. There's actually a good book on the issue entitled "Between Babel and the Beast" addressing the issue very well (more here ).


and for more, one should consider investigating the work of Roger Olson who has provided a mini and partial review of Peter Leithart’s book, Between Babel and the Beast. (more here ).Leithart challenges a religion that he (amongst others) has labeled Americanism (or the worship of America as God’s special nation, like the new Israel).

And for others who've spoken on the issue. One is Soong-Chan Rah in his work The Next Evangelicalism: Releasing the Church from Western ... - Page 449..and another is Andrea Smith of Native Americans and the Christian Right: The Gendered Politics of Unlikely Alliances. Also, as Richard Twiss said best:



G. You are welcome to the interpretation that it is all symbolic without literal fulfillment, or that it all transpired in antiquity.


It must be noted, however, that neither of those constitutes a majority opinion on the subject.
Already noted where it had literal fulfillment, had you read what was said in the context it was said in instead of reading what you thought was said. Some of the earlier views were in line with the school of thought known as Preterism (concerning many things in prophecy already being fulfilled in the OT/NT) and many scholars from the early church often pointed that out (more discussed elsewhere in #3 ).It's already the case that trying to ascribe the U.S into prophecy with Micah is NOT a majority opinion nor has it ever been in history on the subject. Thus, one should do better in understanding history before speaking on it.

Might I suggest that next time you respond to the actual words I posted rather than concocting arguments about things which were not said. Otherwise, it's not really much of a conversation.
Did--and I suggest you respond to what was addressed rather than avoiding it with the ad-hominem that things weren't addressed. You already spoke proclaiming things that were never advocated and that has been noted by others befor when you've done so. Might I suggest you take note and avoid doing so next time. Otherwise, as Thekla noted earlier, it's a matter of responding based on what one wishes to think another meant rather than dealing with what's said...



Just sayin ... :)
 
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Easy G (G²);61448766 said:
Nah...just that making commentary by trying to read the U.S.A into every prophecy regarding the nation of Israel is what others do with the helicopter prophecies.
Yet, if I may get back to Micah 4 ... what has the USA done in the past century if not beat every other nation into submission for the sake of a more just world?

Many complain about how the US has done that, of course ... and not without justification in many circumstances. Still, the world is a profoundly better place than it would have been if the aggressions of Hitler and Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito had gone unchecked. The world is a better place than it would have been if Ronald Reagan had not asked Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin wall. The world is a better place without Osama Bin Laden.

I merely observe the obvious, Easy G. Whether or not you believe the obvious observations fulfill any prophecy is a matter for you to decide. I will not tell you otherwise ... ;)
NightHawkeye, There are also multiple other schools that have often debukned and called out the others that try to force forms of prophecy into the Hebraic worldview without actually seeing what they said about their scriptures/prophecies....and for others working within the Jewish world, some of those schools of thought have been damaging. Replacement Theology being one of them and the other being the view in line with Manifest Destiny (Dominionism as well) which claims the U.S is the New Israel. A school of thought existing doesn't equate to it being historically valid or accurate. It simply means that it exists.
LOL ... and the only valid Christianity is Roman Catholicism ... or is it Eastern Orthodox ... or maybe Martin Luther had it right ... or maybe Mormons do, LOL. :eek:

It's interesting how many different interpretations exist ... with many diverse and contradictory claims between them. Personally, I don't get too worked up about the differences. Truth just is what it is. :thumbsup:
 
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Yet, if I may get back to Micah 4 ... what has the USA done in the past century if not beat every other nation into submission for the sake of a more just world?
When you show historically that Micah 4 was ever in regards to the U.S, then you'll have dealt with it properly. The context of Micah 4 was never about beating other nations into submission like the U.S does with other nations today or the British Empire did (as well as the Roman Empire which practiced assimilation and had many proud to be Roman since they could keep their culture). The nation of Israel was distinctly different in that they were givern the LAWS/Covenant fo the Lord and had certain things promised to them exclusively. The U.S does not qualify for that nor has it ever...at the most basic level being that it's not a THEOCRACY as the OT Israel was in its direct leadership from the Lord (and all of the systems set up to support things such as the priesthood, sacrifical system, and taking care of the poor/destitute in the Land--all of that applying for those living IN THE LAND of Israel....and for more on that issue, one can go either here or #130, here, here , #12, #11 , #4 #10 and #17 / here and here /here/here and here in #46 ).

Israel is Israel and trying to read the U.S will never be applicable seeing where the U.S already does too many things AGAINST it/what God called Israel to be.
Micah 4:9
Why do you now cry aloud—
have you no king[a]?
Has your ruler[b] perished,
that pain seizes you like that of a woman in labor?

10 Writhe in agony, Daughter Zion,
like a woman in labor,
for now you must leave the city
to camp in the open field.
You will go to Babylon;
there you will be rescued.
There the Lord will redeem you
out of the hand of your enemies.

11 But now many nations
are gathered against you.
They say, “Let her be defiled,
let our eyes gloat over Zion!”
12 But they do not know
the thoughts of the Lord;
they do not understand his plan,
that he has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.
13 “Rise and thresh, Daughter Zion,
for I will give you horns of iron;
I will give you hooves of bronze,
and you will break to pieces many nations.”
You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord,
their wealth to the Lord of all the earth.


Micah in Micah 4:9-13 predicted the end of the kings. This was a drastic statement to the people of Judah, who thought that their kingdom would last forever (and the prophet Jeremiah noted it later in Jeremiah 8:19 and Jeremiah 30:6). Micah also said that Bablylon would destory the land of Judah and carry away its king, but after a while God would help his people return to their land. This all happened just as Micah prophesied and these events are recorded in II Chronicles 36:9-23 and Ezra 1:1-2.


Concerning Micah 4:13, it was within the context of threshing..and thresing was done in one of two ways: (1) by beating the sheaves with a rod or flail or (2) by trampling them under the feet of oxen that pulled a wooden shed around the threshing floor (Isaiah 28:27). Threshing was done out-of-doors on a hard surface of gthe ground and was also used to figuratively describe God's judgement (Isaiah 21:10, Isaiah 41:15, I Corinthians 9:10). When walking right with the Lord, the future strength of Israel could not be matched...just as it was when the people of the Lord often saw their enemies taken out because they followed him FULLY and at ALL POINTS. Not selectively---counter to what the U.S and the other nations of our days do. They often had many deliverances that were miraculous and that was because the Lord loved His people

As Barnes Notes said best:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Arise - (It may be,) from the dust in which they were lying, "I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass." Threshing in the East is partly with oxen, partly with wheels of iron, or with planks set with sharp flints on an open place made hard to this end. The prophet joins another image, with this and represents Judah as being by God endued with strength, first as with a "horn of iron" 1 Kings 22:11 to cast the enemy to the ground, and then with "hoofs of brass," wherewith to trample them to dust, as the stubble and chaff. "And I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord," that is, to Myself; the Lord gathered them into the floor by His Providence; the Lord gave His people strength to subdue them; and now, in His own Person, He says, I will complete My own work.

The very image of the "threshing" implies that this is no mere destruction.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion - This refers to the subject of the preceding verse. When God shall have gathered together all thy enemies, as into the threshing-floor, he will give thee commission and power to get a complete victory over them, and reduce them to servitude. And that thou mayest be able to do this, he will be on thy side as a powerful helper; here signified by the metaphors, iron horns, and brazen hoofs. Thou shalt have power, authority, and unconquerable strength; for thine enemies shall be no more against thee than the corn against oxen shod with brass, or a puny animal against the horn of a fierce bull tipped with iron. I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord - What they have taken from thee in the way of spoil shall be restored; and again consecrated unto the service of him who will show himself to be the Lord, the Supreme Governor of the whole earth. Was not this prediction fulfilled when Cyrus gave the Jews permission to return to their own land, and gave them back the sacred vessels of the temple which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away? The Maccabees and their successors recovered much of the booty of which the neighboring nations had deprived the Jews; and the treasure taken was devoted to Jehovah. The first verse of the next chapter should conclude this.

Context...which you're again missing in favor of making it up as you go along.



Many complain about how the US has done that, of course ... and not without justification in many circumstances. Still, the world is a profoundly better place than it would have been if the aggressions of Hitler and Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito had gone unchecked. The world is a better place than it would have been if Ronald Reagan had not asked Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin wall. The world is a better place without Osama Bin Laden.

By your logic, you are essentially for Manifest Destiny theology and have no issue with the attrocities done in the name of the U.S due to minimizing the impact of them and saying that it's all good so long as some good came out of it. Pointing out the evils done by one nation or other nations/how they were stopped is a logical fallacy, as it ignores the evils done SIMUNTANEOUSLY in the U.S that it was called out for being hypocritical on. We can start with Hitler, which the U.S often takes pride in removing. It is FACT that the U.S. was already mistreating their Jewish populations at the same time as the Holocaust going on (leading many Jews to blend in/hide their Jewish ancestry since they had the benefit of simply being apart of white society), it was not something for many Hebrew Israelites where mistreatment was a real fear. To them, Jews (who they deemed to be blacks) already faced genocide and persecution in the U.S for centuries without anyone really speaking up on it-

Something else that comes to mind is that it was the case that the U.S ONLY got involved in the War after being provoked (finding out about the death camps near the end, if not after, WWII). During World War II, America was goaded into fighting by Japan...but none of the Allies was fighting "for the liberation of the Jews", and none of the Allies did anything aimed at slowing down, disrupting or halting the Holocaust. And being a Jew in the U.S. was often shunned--as well as for minorities in general. For more info, one can go to "The Revelation of the Death Camps and Zionism ( )". Obviously, with the Allied victory over Nazi Germany, the Holocaust came to an end, but that wasn't why the Allies fought..and when the Holocaust was revealed, people then gave sympathies. Yet for many, the bad history prior to that is forgotten.

Many Jews called out the U.S when it finally intervened against Germany due to how it was attacked---claiming to love the Jewish people when the reality was that it often discriminated against Jews and many other minority groups. Many noted where the U.S was simultaneously allowing systematic hatred/terrorism toward blacks for centuries even during the war (and that also includes the genocide of Native Americans)..not to mention where the U.S did the SAME things as Germany when it came to sterilization/experimentation of blacks (Tuskagee Project), the advocation of the Negro Project which advocated extermination of blacks in the U.S by Margret Sanger (more discussed here in #279/ #8, #13 ), the disabled/homeless (As it concerns experiments done in the mental institutions), and other groups. The world was NOT a better place when it came to what happened in Vietnam and the Hmmong. It was not a better place when it came to its radical extermination of many Islanders in the Pacific...or people in Panama.

It's not a better place in the world when it comes to the Consumeristic culture SUPPORTED by the U.S where we import our junk to other nations (such as Ghana and China concerning E-Waste/Electronic Waste) nor is the world a better place when it comes to the ways we steal the water supplies of others/pollute their environments for our products...nor is it a better place when we involved ourselves in Black market activity that harms others (human trafficking being the biggest issue and the U.S LEADING THE WAY in that).

It's dishonest trying to portray the world as a better place when looking at the good the U.S does while willfully ignoring much of the bad that it has also done in the process consistently. ..or minimizing the ways OTHER NATIONS helped to make the world a better place as well, be it Britain or Austraila and other places. That goes back to the self-centered view that America is what everyone must place their hope in..and it's not Biblical.

I merely observe the obvious, Easy G. Whether or not you believe the obvious observations fulfill any prophecy is a matter for you to decide. I will not tell you otherwise ... ;)
As you have failed multiple times at addressing the obvious in regards to context and history--alongside supporting ideology that has long been debunked by many Biblical scholars, sorry--but it's obvious you make it up as you go along rather than really understanding Judaic principles at interpreting history/prophecy. Whether or not you're willing (or capable) of doing sound research is up for you to decide...but that is your choice.

LOL ... and the only valid Christianity is Roman Catholicism ... or is it Eastern Orthodox ... or maybe Martin Luther had it right ... or maybe Mormons do, LOL. :eek:

t's interesting how many different interpretations exist ... with many diverse and contradictory claims between them. Personally, I don't get too worked up about the differences. Truth just is what it is. :thumbsup:
That you include Mormons into the mix of Christianity shows another lack of understanding regarding what the scriptures note. As it stands, what matters is understanding what the 1st century Judeao Christian view noted and realizing where other groups got it WAY off and others closer than most. If ignoring basic concepts that were well understood in Jewish culture or ignoring where certain views were developed SOLELY for the sake of ethnic expansion at the cost of others (as it concerns Manifest Destinty), you don't know how to deal with prophecy. Even Eastern Orthodoxy which you bring up doesn't support the concept of Manifest Destiny or seeing the U.S as the New Israel/Daughter of Zion---and thus, the argument you raise is pointless. A red herring/false scenario to be exact.

For no one was debating diversity in Christianity nor is it the case that having diversity in the world of Christ (i.e. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc) automatically means all interpretations are equal or that the view you're advocating for Manifest Destiny/"American is Israel in Micah 4-5" is a valid interpretation not to be questioned
 
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Easy G (G²);61448886 said:
When you show historically that Micah 4 was ever in regards to the U.S, then you'll have dealt with it properly. The context of Micah 4 was never about beating other nations into submission like the U.S does with other nations today or the British Empire did (as well as the Roman Empire which practiced assimilation and had many proud to be Roman since they could keep their culture).

Context.
LOL ... then, by all means, context ... including socialism, just to relate it back to the OP. ;)
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Context here seems self-evident that "last days" means "last days". :D

Mountain appears to be a reference to a tall nation though ... and that notion is reinforced in later verses.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
It seems obvious enough that many nations want to "learn" from whatever nation it is to which this prophecy refers.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
The "he" here would seem to be God ... using the instruments at his disposal.

One might well ask exactly what are we doing now with nuclear disarmament but eliminating weapons. The USA armed itself as no other nation in the history of the world has ever done before ... but most of its weapons are already on the trash heap of history, as are the weapons of the USSR. But, I digress ...
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Curiously, an idyllic place ... perhaps socialism ... perhaps just a more just capitalism. Or, perhaps a theocracy? ;)
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
I'm pretty sure that these haven't been fulfilled yet, LOL. :doh:
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
Hmm ... her that was cast far off ... I wonder if the other side of the world from Jerusalem would qualify as far off? :confused:
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
Hmm ... tower of the flock? How many possibilities are there?
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Wow ... go even to Babylon ... from "far off". :doh: How many nations have done that? :confused:
11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
Any of this sound familiar?
12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
Almighty God has been known to make such claims on occasion ... :bow:
13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
"Thou shalt beat in pieces many people" sure looks literal to me, Easy G. Whadda ya think?
 
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LOL ... then, by all means, context ... including socialism, just to relate it back to the OP. ;)
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Context here seems self-evident that "last days" means "last days". :D
Wrong again, in light of what others have often noted when it came to the immediate context/setting...and one of the reasons why (as said before) it's making it up as one goes along rather than dealing with the scriptures in the setting they occurred in.:cool:

When one can show where the U.S is the same the THEOCRATIC nation of Israel/Judah at all levels, then one has room to make parallels. Till then, they do the same thing as other crazies in existence who've claimed they are all "the Chosen" people in the name of every attrocity done to man.

Moving on to that which is credible...

Mountain appears to be a reference to a tall nation though ... and that notion is reinforced in later verses.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


It seems obvious enough that many nations want to "learn" from whatever nation it is to which this prophecy refers.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
The "he" here would seem to be God ... using the instruments at his disposal.

One might well ask exactly what are we doing now with nuclear disarmament but eliminating weapons. The USA armed itself as no other nation in the history of the world has ever done before ...
Minus the fact that other nations were often arming themseves on the same level as the U.S (Russia being one of them, which still has the capability of taking us out---hence the MAD ..Mutually Assurred Destruction...concept from the Cold War), again the context is on the nation of Israel.

Only those obsessed with Manifest Destiny ideology support the claim you have--and that has led to A LOT of mess as it is. What is plain is that when Christ returns, it will have NOTHING to do with whether or not one is a socialist or a capitalist or any other economic group. Micah describd a vision of world peace that GOD as just ruler and judge (not the U.S or any other nation) will bring about in a NON-VIOLENT way through arbitration. This vision would fulfill one of the sovereign's main responsibilities, namely to bring peace and tranquility to all nations (I Kings 5:4, Isaiah 9:7, Isaiah 11:1-9, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Jeremiah 33:15-16). Peace amongst the nations would lead to individual peace, symbolized by an agraran image of security...as vines and figs represent long-term peace and prosperity.

The U.S has never come REMOTELY Close to any of that. Of course, if one wishes to go/claim that the U.S is the MESSIAH as well as Israel...one is free to do, crazy/illogical as that'd be.....:cool:


Moving on...

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Curiously, an idyllic place ... perhaps socialism ... perhaps just a more just capitalism. Or, perhaps a theocracy?
As OT Israel did just that when it returned to Him, trying to again go back and ascribe the U.S is another form of making up as people go along.

5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.


I'm pretty sure that these haven't been fulfilled yet, LOL. :doh:
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
Hmm ... her that was cast far off ... I wonder if the other side of the world from Jerusalem would qualify as far off? :confused:


8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
Hmm ... tower of the flock? How many possibilities are there?
Seeing context makes a difference. For Micah 4:6-8 were a divine promise that God would act positively on behalf of the Remant that trusted in Him...and both sovereignty and noble dignity would be restored to Israel. The dispersed would be brought back to Jerusalem when the Lord exercised dominion on their behalf from the TEMPLE Mount. In the Messiah, who will return for His people (especially as it concerns the Remnant of Israel and what the Lord is doing amongst the Jewish believers today), this is a big deal since it deals with His return to establish Justice in all the nations and punish all who do wrong (including the U.S for it's long history).
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Wow ... go even to Babylon ... from "far off". :doh: How many nations have done that? :confused:

Once again, as you argued from the UNBIBLICAL Position of Manifest Destinity which inherently justifies much of what the Messiah said He'd NOT do, it's no surprise to see the continual assumption of the U.S as being who the Lord was talking to.

Context again makes a difference and it'd behoove you to understand that. Micah 4:9-10 deals with prophetic announcement of salvation to God's people---not the U.S which has consistently been at odds with God (and many times throughout its history persecuted the CHURCH/God's people within it).


God's suffering people would be consoled and redeemed from their suffering when the Messiah came....
11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
Any of this sound familiar?
12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
Almighty God has been known to make such claims on occasion ... :bow:
13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
"Thou shalt beat in pieces many people" sure looks literal to me, Easy G. Whadda ya think?
Already shared..and as said before, one needs to deal with context rather than making it up as one goes along or arguing against what was never said (seeing that no one said the text of Micah 4:6-8 was not literal at many points).:cool:
 
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Easy G (G²);61449048 said:
Wrong again, in light of what others have often noted when it came to the immediate context/setting...and one of the reasons why (as said before) it's making it up as one goes along rather than dealing with the scriptures in the setting they occurred in.:cool:

Moving on to that which is credible...
I would point out that Micah 5 was the prophesy of Jesus ... some 700 years or so before his actual birth. :wave:

And as I said earlier, you are welcome to your interpretation ... which seems to be preterism but that is far from a majority theological opinion.

Preterism, whatever its merits may be, is also a relatively new school of eschatological thought: Preterism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible, especially Daniel and Revelation, as events which have already happened in the first century A.D.
...
By the end of the 18th century preterist exposition had gradually become more widespread. The first full preterist exposition was finally written in 1730 by the Protestant and Arian, Frenchman Firmin Abauzit (‘Essai sur l'Apocalypse’), who worked in the those time independent Republic of Geneva as a librarian. This was part of a growing development of more systematic preterist expositions of Revelation. Later, though, it appears that Abauzit recanted this approach after a critical examination by his English translator, Dr. Twells.

The earliest American full preterist work was 'The Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ: A Past Event', which was written in 1845 by Robert Townley. Townley later recanted this view.

Preterists, full and partial, believe that it is becoming increasingly popular due to more accurate translations of the Bible- with Young's Literal Translation being a key work.

 
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I would point out that Micah 5 was the prophesy of Jesus ... some 700 years or so before his actual birth. :wave:
Already noted that earlier, just as it was noted that Micah 5 also dealt with the Assyrian nation coming against Judah (as it was on the rise during the time of Jonah who came before Micah/was sent to preach repentence to the capitol of Assyria...and that was the case right afterward in the time of Hezekiah when Assyria as a world power began to harrass Judah) and Israel (which had later been taken into captivity by Assyria in II Kings 17), before the rise of Babylon taking it out as a world power and being a prelude how the Messiah (Yeshua) would save the world from others coming against HIS PEOPLE. Not the U.S.A.
And as I said earlier, you are welcome to your interpretation ... which seems to be preterism but that is far from a majority theological opinion.

Preterism, whatever its merits may be, is also a relatively new school of eschatological thought: Preterism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As I said earlier, one needs to understand the concept of context before speaking on scripture what isn't there...and doing what plenty of cults/Charismaniac groups do in making things up as they go along without understanding the way prophecy was seen in the Judaic culture. Seeing that you brought it up preterism to fully categorize disagreement with your views on the U.S fulfilling prophecy, it should be noted that what you're doing is Reductio ad absurdum ....not a good strategy on your part for the point on preterism. In formal logic, the reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate argument and follows the form that if the premises are assumed to be true it necessarily leads to an absurd (false) conclusion and therefore one or more premises must be false. The term is now often used to refer to the abuse of this style of argument, by stretching the logic in order to force an absurd conclusion. For example a UFO enthusiast can argue that if I am skeptical about the existence of alien visitors, I must also be skeptical of the existence of the Great Wall of China, since I have not personally seen either. This is a false reductio ad absurdum because he is ignoring evidence other than personal eyewitness evidence, and also logical inference. In short, being skeptical of UFO’s does not require rejecting the existence of the Great Wall.

The same principle applies here as it concerns the issue of seeing fulfillment of prophecy in scripture in the immediate setting it occurred in, regarding Micah 4-5 having many things occur within decades whereas other things took centuries to come to passs. Just because one believes many aspects of prophecy occurred in the immediate setting doesn't mean one advocates for ALL Levels of prophecy being of such in general. Be it FULL Preterism or Partial Preterism, Preterism has differing levels to it (just as Futurism does) and it has been a majority position by many throughout the ages depending on which paticular variation of it is in view. The early church was (for the most part) supportative of types of preterists when it came to seeing things Christ spoke of in the future coming to pass in THEIR DAY---although they had aspects of futurism involved in them since not all aspects of OT Prophecy were fulfilled...namely, the RETURN of the MESSIAH AND His rule over the world (more discussed elsewhere in #3 as shared WAY earlier).

And to quote what was said elsewhere:
this is a debate on the issue that was very informative...from Messianc Jew, Dr. Michael Brown.

Dr. Brown is a Messianic Jewish apologist and one of the foremost scholars on the subject of Jewish culture/thought, as well as one who's a Futurist...whereas Dr.Demar is a Preterist (Partial Preterist) who is has long had an issue with much of what's discussed within the "Left Behind"/End Times eschatology. Dr Brown is someone whom many of my friends/family have either known or worked with personally...whereas Dr. Demar is someone who used to teach at my highschool when I was a freshman.

The discussion was very cordial and it was wonderful to see how they discussed many differing issues that are often not acknowledged in certain circles, making clear that not everything with Preterism is automatically to be shunned and deemed "heresy"/deception. For there are many variations of Preterism---and other Preterists have often denounced some forms of it as an issue.

For other articles that may be of interest to you, one can go online/investigate the following --as they deal with many scriptures on the subject that are good for study:

Over the years, I have tended to find the Preterist view compelling..and personally, I am very much against much of the sensationalism being witnessed within the world due to a Futurist mindset of End Times. Thus, I tend to combine some parts of Preterism with other viewpoints at times---though I'm still debating the Futurist Mindset when it comes to the tribulation/other events. For many, the fact that many CHristians are being persecuted around the world still in GREAT numbers is evidence that a tribulation has already occurred. Many are of the mindset that we already have a world one government---and a GLOBAL Anti-Christ system established through the media/t.v. When seeing how much destruction has occurred with human trafficking and child sex slaves, as well as wars of many kinds, I think it'd be safe to say that we're definately in the end..

But techincally, the end has already been in place since Jesus rose and went to Heaven. Every generation thought they were the end--and that's something I have to square with.

A good place to go for review would be "Jewish and Christian Biblical Studies @ PreteristArchive.com" . Learned of it awhile ago, concerning how believing that one generation was the last one was something that was present in the Jewish culture---especially in the group known as the Essenes since they felt that they were God's Chosen and that the Lord would come to redeem them as they waited out for him. Being much fewer in number than the Pharisees and the Sadducees (the other two major sects at the time), it was the Esscenes from whom the Dead Sea Scrolls were written from—-as they fled the corruption they saw rampant in Jerusalem/the religious groups of their day as they fought one another—and in an effort to avoid corruption, they fled the “politics”/went into the desert of Quarman. Similar to the Pharisees, the Essenes saw themselves as God’s elect in whom He was secretly working and whom He will vindicate when He finally cleanses the Temple, fulfilling His promises & restoring true worship while also putting back the right people in power and bringing redemption to unredeemed Israel. However, they had differing views on socio-political actions.

For whereas the Sadducees believed in seizing/maintaining political power for themselves…while the Pharisees were somewhat similar, the Esscenes lived very simple/communal lifestyles………proclaiming by their actions that, though they longed for the liberation of Israel, they were simply going to wait and allow the Lord to bring it to pass in His own time. They felt God will act in His own ways and was, in fact, already acting secretly through them and their quiet devotional practices rather than as other parties acted. When the resurrection happened, the Essenes—seeing themselves as the recipients of God’s future eschatological benefits, naturally believed that having shown their faithfulness to God during the exile/not engaging in either hatred of others or violence, they would be reestablished as the true Israel.

While the Roman war appealed to men of action such as the Zealots, men of a more peaceful and visionary nature seemed to become Essenes….and many others believe the Essene camp was what Christianity was birthed out of.

The early believers may've felt adopted similar views as the Essenes....and many scholars have speculated that the Nazarenes had a similar eschatology when it came to waiting for deliverance. Pehraps they were preterist...and to be clear, "partial preterism" is very different from "full preterism", and is generally partly futurist (but can embrace just about any mix of ideas). Partial preterism says that while many prophecies stated in the First Century should be examined first as to whether they were fulfilled close to that time. But with enough support they can be extended throughout the history of the Christians, and we're still in the middle somewhere. Many if not most partial preterists say that the next thing to occur in prophetic fulfillment is Jesus' return. Partial preterism says Jesus was primarily talking to His First Century hearers, so we should examine what He says from a First Century perspective, primarily.

Some of this you may already be aware of...but for the sake of info on the differing views of eschatology, Amillennialism is a specific position in regard to the Millennium, it says that the Millennium isn't intended to describe a literal period of time, but rather describes Christ's reign at the Father's right hand until the time of His coming. Preterism is a position in regard to prophetic interpretation, sometimes contrasted with Futurism and Historicism. Historicism would argue, for example, that what St. John the Revelator wrote has had an ongoing fulfillment since his day to ours, the earliest Protestants were Historicists, which led Luther, Calvin (et al) to conclude that the Papacy fulfilled the eschatological role of Antichrist and Beast (not the person of the Pope, per se, but rather the office of Pope). Futurists would posit that all or most of everything in the Revelation will be fulfilled at a heretofore unspecified point in the future, Dispensationalists fall in this category (and they are also Premillennialists).

Preterism, on the other hand, states that much (partial) or all (full) of what St. John wrote, or what Jesus spoke about in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) had its fulfillment, or was primarily about, stuff that took place in the first century and the time of John himself. Hyper-Preterism goes so far as to argue that the Parousia--the Second Coming--occurred in 70 AD when the Roman army destroyed the Temple, they believe this was a visitation of Judgment, the return or appearing of Christ, against the old order represented by Jerusalem and the Temple. Hyper-Preterism is regarded as heretical by mainstream Christianity as the Historic Creeds are clear that the Lord will return at the end to raise the dead bodily (Hyper-Preterism denies the resurrection of the body, which is, again, heretical).

The two involve different aspects of eschatology, one could be both Amillennial and a Preterist, one could be Amillennial but not a Preterist. Luther, Calvin and other early Protestants were Amillennialists and Historicists, one can also be Amillennial and a Futurist.

A Historicist sees these things as having been fulfilled throughout the last two thousand years at different times, such as the early Protestants seeing the Papacy as fulfilling the role of "Man of Sin" from Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians and the Beast from Revelation 13. Seventh Day Adventists are Historicists, perhaps even moreso than the historic Protestant churches (Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc). A Preterist would see these things as having happened in the past, for example a Preterist would probably see Jesus mentioning the "abomination that causes desolation" and see its fulfillment when the Romans desolated the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, a Preterist would understand the Revelation's "Beast" to likely be a reference to Nero and/or Domitian and/or the imperial power in Rome in general
Had you read what was said, you would have caught that rather than respond based on what wasn't stated. And one can do better than Wikipedia to give a comprehensive view on what preterism is if really understanding it...as if that alone is known to be a trustworthy source. One thing that is consistent is that it a NEW school of thought to claim that the U.S.A is the New Israel or that prophecies pertaining to the MESSIAH (Yeshua) are meant to point to the U.S.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Easy G (G²);61449116 said:
Already noted that earlier, just as it was noted that Micah 5 also dealt with the Assyrian nation coming against Judah and Israel (which had later been taken into captivity in II Kings 17), before the rise of Babylon taking it out as a world power and being a prelude how the Messiah (Yeshua) would save the world from others coming against HIS PEOPLE. Not the U.S.A.
LOL ... and as I pointed out to you, the "Assyrian" mentioned in Micah 5 is an "explicit" prophecy fairly widely acknowledged as not having occurred in history to date. :wave:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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LOL ... and as I pointed out to you, the "Assyrian" mentioned in Micah 5 is an "explicit" prophecy fairly widely acknowledged as not having occurred in history to date. :wave:
Wrong again...as you already ignored the context of what Assyria was in the OT and the chronological history of the book. Something that has already been acknowledged by having history seen to come to pass by many when seeing what happened to Assyria after the rise of Babylon.

Keep up, as what you say is nothing new nor is anything that hasn't already been addressed in Church history. It is what it is, Bruh:cool:
 
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NightHawkeye

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Easy G (G²);61449132 said:
Wrong again...as you already ignored the context of what Assyria was in the OT and the chronological history of the book. Something that has already been acknowledged by having history seen to come to pass by many when seeing what happened to Assyria after the rise of Babylon.

Keep up, as what you say is nothing new nor is anything that hasn't already been addressed in Church history. It is what it is, Bruh:cool:
LOL ... I take that to mean you're at the stage of the argument where you proclaim victory and exhibit manifest intolerance to an alternative viewpoint?

Bummer ... it's been fun. :wave:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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LOL ... I take that to mean you're at the stage of the argument where you proclaim victory and exhibit manifest intolerance to an alternative viewpoint?
Not really, as alternative viewpoints are never an issue..and currently, where things are at seem to often happen (as they have before) when others make spurrious claims/have no reference to back them up and thus resort to ad-homimen in focusing on posters via exaggeration rather than showing their facts substantiated.:cool: Where scripture is selectively ignored in order to make a point or the immediate context avoided, it is not "manifest intolerance" to say it lacks any sense of credibility or logic...for many diverse viewpoints can be advocated and yet all be united in seeking to address scripture with scripture and from scripture....not make up things as they go along/violate basic rules of hermenutics that the early church was never for.

If one supports Manifest Destinity, as said before, they have the freedom to do so---but it's illogical claiming that one disagreeing with that on the basis of consistency/accuracy with the whole of God's word must somehow be against all things alternative. That logic is what others use when saying Christ must of been for nationalistic conquest because of his talking about the Kingdom of God (or others saying Christ must have taught literal hatred for family members based on his statement "If you do not hate your father/mother.." in Matthew 10) and then trying to paint false scenario that those disagreeing with it must be against diversity in interpretation. What is at odds has nothing to do with diverse views of scripture...but rather adverse views of scripture divorced from scripture/context.


Bummer ... it's been fun. :wave:
Peace. Shalom :wave:
 
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The idea of continuous exponential expansion may have met its match at the borders of the planet - so outward is the only place left to go, unless expansion can continue into intangibles and re-use.

If we learned how to recycle much of what we had available and be resourceful, then perhaps we could do a lot more.
 
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jpcedotal

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gotta limit number of terms one can serve in any level of government...that's the problem. Folks should serve ONLY to better the country, NOT to make a good living.
 
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