Unforgiveness is unforgivable...

[Guojing]

In the interests of getting this thread back on topic, I am not going to discuss how many Gospels there are in this thread @Guojing out of respect for @Carl Emerson , but out of respect for you and @Minister Monardo if you post a new thread on the subject of how many Gospels there are, or whatever you want the subject to be, and tag me by placing an @ character in front of my name, I will continue to debate this with you. That way Carl is happy, you are happy, and we have two interesting discussions rather than one muddled one.

Personally, whether a discussion is off-topic to me is pretty subjective.

Why this current discussion is not off topic boils down to this

The OP stated that Jesus said in Matthew that If you don't forgive others , neither will your Father forgive you.

But Paul preached in Ephesians 4:32 that "You should forgive others because in Christ, God has already forgiven you"

Which one applies to us in the Body of Christ now?

Once you understand this point, then our current discussion is not off topic.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I am just saying Acts is NOT when you will find the essence of Paul's gospel.

Paul's gospel is found in Roman to Philemon.

No problem. But you are deflecting. The issue has been your insistence that the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels are for Jews under Law only, and that Paul's teachings are for Gentiles. This is just wrong. I wasn't going to get into a debate using Paul, so I asked the Holy Spirit how to prove quickly that the Gospels are for all, and He said, Luke. As always, when I asked, I immediately saw how obvious that answers. You have since refused to acknowledge that Luke's Gospel was written for Greeks. You cannot make Paul exclusive to the Gentiles, because Acts proves that He preached the same message to Jews and Gentiles. That is now settled, even if you cannot acknowledge such obvious truth. It is now published for all, and I am finished.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Can you see you are misinterpreting it to mean "Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed"?

Paul is writing to the churches in the region of Galatia, Jew and Gentile.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Which one applies to us in the Body of Christ now?

Matthew 18:
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

This is why Paul states:
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

This must be an ongoing process. When it ceases, we are disobeying Christ.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Would you agree with that?

I would agree that you are pushing further off topic as a deflection from acknowledging the Gospels. Is there a problem with turning the other cheek? Stiff neck?

 

[fhansen]

Matt 6:15

...if you do not forgive other people, then your Father will not forgive your offenses.

Friends we underestimate how serious unforgiveness is.

I urge that we all ask Him to search our hearts in this matter.

It sounds as serious as the unforgivable sin.

Maybe we don't take this important issue seriously enough.

Yes! It points to the most basic issue: man is obligated to love, as God does, because He first loves us. And if our justification has not resulted in that love then we need to question if we really have any justice/righteousness. And all of this points to the fact that love is both a gift, and a choice. Man is obligated to love. It’s an incomparably high and good obligation, aimed at our own highest good, and one that only He can fulfill in us. But we must be willing. Justification is not just a declared status; it must be lived. We must also forgive. We must also love.

 

[Neogaia777]

Matt 6:15

...if you do not forgive other people, then your Father will not forgive your offenses.

Friends we underestimate how serious unforgiveness is.

I urge that we all ask Him to search our hearts in this matter.

It sounds as serious as the unforgivable sin.

Maybe we don't take this important issue seriously enough.

Unforgiveness does things to the heart that may not be able to be allowed in Heaven...

It is also not at all the right perspective for us to have also, like you have forgotten what it took to forgive you, and so it is a presumptuous and egotistical and arrogant view to have also, etc...

You must let it go, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello again folks,

This was my church day so I have been fully occupied elsewhere.

Thanks Liturgist for trying to keep the thread on track.

I might mention a similar statement made in John.

1 John 4:20
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and yet he hates his brother or sister, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother and sister whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

This is a similar statement...

Just as unforgivemess is unacceptable to the Father - so is hatred of a brother or sister.

One who hates is usually also in unforgiveness.

Unless such conditions of heart are corrected serious consequences follow.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Unforgiveness does things to the heart that may not be able to be allowed in Heaven...

Yes, There it is!
Hebrews 12:
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled

 

[Minister Monardo]

Just as unforgivemess is unacceptable to the Father - so is hatred of a brother or sister.

One who hates is usually also in unforgiveness.

Unless such conditions of heart are corrected serious consequences follow.

Matthew 18:
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

This is why Paul states:
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

This must be an ongoing process. When it ceases, we are disobeying Christ.

 

[Guojing]

No problem. But you are deflecting. The issue has been your insistence that the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels are for Jews under Law only, and that Paul's teachings are for Gentiles. This is just wrong. I wasn't going to get into a debate using Paul, so I asked the Holy Spirit how to prove quickly that the Gospels are for all, and He said, Luke. As always, when I asked, I immediately saw how obvious that answers. You have since refused to acknowledge that Luke's Gospel was written for Greeks. You cannot make Paul exclusive to the Gentiles, because Acts proves that He preached the same message to Jews and Gentiles. That is now settled, even if you cannot acknowledge such obvious truth. It is now published for all, and I am finished.

I can acknowledge that Luke's gospel was written for a Greek whose name is in the 1st verse of that book.

But it does not follow that the gospel found in Luke, nor the book of Acts is therefore Paul's gospel. Its non-sequitur

 

[Guojing]

Hello again folks,

This was my church day so I have been fully occupied elsewhere.

Thanks Liturgist for trying to keep the thread on track.

I might mention a similar statement made in John.

1 John 4:20
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and yet he hates his brother or sister, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother and sister whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

This is a similar statement...

Just as unforgivemess is unacceptable to the Father - so is hatred of a brother or sister.

One who hates is usually also in unforgiveness.

Unless such conditions of heart are corrected serious consequences follow.

Yes, John is preaching the same gospel as Jesus did in the 4 gospels, which is the gospel of the circumcision, as John agreed with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9.

In that gospel, unforgiveness is a unforgivable sin. You are absolutely correct.

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 18:
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

This is why Paul states:
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

This must be an ongoing process. When it ceases, we are disobeying Christ.

But Paul did not say, "if you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you"

Would you agree?

 

[Minister Monardo]

I can acknowledge that Luke's gospel was written for a Greek whose name is in the 1st verse of that book.

Seriously? You think Luke wrote two books for one person? He is addressing the reader as theophilus=
friend of God. I am theophilus.
It follows that the Gospels are for everyone, not just Jews under Law, as you have stated, and remain adamant, to the confusion of your own face.

 

[Minister Monardo]

But Paul did not say, "if you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you"

Would you agree?

Doesn't matter. Jesus said it. Non sequitur.

 

[Guojing]

Doesn't matter. Jesus said it. Non sequitur.

But Jesus was not speaking to you there Matthew 15:24.

 

[Guojing]

Seriously? You think Luke wrote two books for one person? He is addressing the reader as theophilus=
friend of God. I am theophilus.
It follows that the Gospels are for everyone, not just Jews under Law, as you have stated, and remain adamant, to the confusion of your own face.

You keep harping on minor stuff. I am just saying Paul’s gospel is neither found in Luke nor Acts.

 

[fhansen]

But Paul did not say, "if you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you"

Would you agree?

Paul would’ve agreed. Same gospel, same new covenant. Jesus told us what must be done. Paul got somewhat more involved in how it it works, meaning to explain the mechanics of it, because he was battling legalism/Judaism in some of his letters. People have gotten confused by it but all NT writers understood that it’s all about grace, Gods work in us as we enter an intimate union with Him that begins with faith.

When you’ve seen Jesus you’ve seen God. When you believe in Jesus you believe in God. When you hope in, and, most importantly, love Jesus you love God. When you love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength you’ve reached the ultimate in justice/righteousness for man.

 

[Minister Monardo]

You keep harping on minor stuff. I am just saying Paul’s gospel is neither found in Luke nor Acts.

No, you have said and refuse to retract the belief that the teachings of Jesus Christ are not for every believer, only for Jews under Law, based on a faulty understanding of Matthew 15:24. You are clearly being stiff necked, to your own detriment. This is not "minor stuff".
Proverbs 29:1 He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck,
Will suddenly be destroyed,
and that without remedy.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, There it is!
Hebrews 12:
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled

Bitterness, and also anger and wrath and jealousy and envy in some cases, etc, yes...

God Bless!