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unforgivable sins

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by jeremiah, May 27, 2002.

  1. jeremiah

    jeremiah Member

    251
    +0
    Josephus,
    do you believe there to be ANY sin that would be deemed "unforgivable"? what are your views on forgiveness? do you believe that the gesture of asking for forgiveness to be your ticket to heaven so to speak?
     
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  2. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    There is only one sin in all the history of man that was never forgiven of them, but it wasn't a personal sin, it was a generational sin.

    Of course, Satan's rebellion can not be forgiven since he can not be redeemed.

    But man's one and only opportunity to recognize Jesus as Messiah failed when the Chief Priest himself, the only person who could make this judgement: denied Jesus recognition of Messiahship, and therefore paved the way to the only other explanation for his miracles: Satanic power. Because the Chief Priest refused to recognize Jesus as God, Jesus pronounced judgement on that generation later saying that they would never see the comming of the kingdom in their time. This is one sin that would not be forgiven of them.

    And if you will see, Jesus' ministry completely shifts after that pronouncement of the Chief Priest! Before, he spoke plainly, did miracles in front of their eyes, and openly fulfilled scripture so as to meet the exact requirements necessary for the Chief Priest to determine for a nation the comming of the Messiah. Caiphas failed to do that, thus bringing down the judgement of God on that generation: that they would not see the comming of the kingdom of God.

    Everything Jesus did after that point, became the start of the journey to the cross. Jesus no longer made it a point to win over the Pharisees and teachers of the law, but made it a bigger point to win the people - for the sin of the generation was true, but the forgiveness of sins for the individual remains (so even Caiphas could be saved if he ever made a decision to follow Jesus - but the sin of that generation would still have remained, and God's judgement to not give the Kingdom to them, already proncounced).

    In the past, when Israel as a nation sinned (generational sin) they could repent, and often God was moved to save them. But this generation, the generation that officially rejected Jesus as Lord, commited a sin against the Holy Spirit - something that could not be forgiven, and hence, the fullness of that sin would be realized: that generation would not see the Kingdom come, but in fact, it would be destroyed. And in 70 AD, with the Roman sacking of Jerusalem, that is what happened. It's no wonder God made the Jews wait another 1,878 years before this new exile would end. (with the re-creation of Israel in May, 1948)


    The gesture of asking forgiveness is not the ticket to heaven, but a good step. The only way to heaven though, is to actually RECIEVE that forgiveness through Jesus Christ - a decision of the heart to accept him and recieve him as your Savior, and Lord.
     
  3. jeremiah

    jeremiah Member

    251
    +0
    so do you believe by accepting Christ, that is your way to heaven? I have only been on this board a short time, but I was in as a visitor for 2 months before registering and I have indeed seen what appears to me as some VERY unchristian attitudes of some of the so called Christians. I am in no way referring to you, you seem to have integrity and character, but I am suggesting that just by saying we accept him, but NOT living a life according to him will not get us eternal salvation. What do you think?
     
  4. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    Well, the issue of salvation is another question. :)

    You are saved when you accept Jesus as Savior, but it's proven by you making him Lord.
     
  5. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    Amen.

    "Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?...You see...faith and actions work together.... As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2:18b-20, 22a, 26

    Accepting Christ and faith in Him is the only way to heaven, but the good works done in us through the Holy Spirit are the fruit of that salvation and cannot but exist if He lives in us. It is important to know that our our deeds do not save us, but the grace of God through our faith... the deeds merely are the inherent and unavoidable fruit of that faith.

    Many false teachers have and will come who claim Christ but deny him in action. Christ Himself prophesied such, and so it should not surprise us to see it as so. It is our task only to worship God in thankfulness, encourage those who are seeking Him, and rebuke those who are indeed antichrists by their actions.

    As to your first question, there isan unforgivable sin. Christ called it "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" and it's an issue on which I've heard many statements by many people, but on which Scripture does not specifically elaborate on in detail. Yet, we do know that only one thing can separate us from God eternally...and that is rejection of Christ as the only Messiah and Savior of mankind. It would seem the two are invariably related.

    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  6. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    There is one question, though, I think that might shed light on why I believe that the unforgivable sin was committed by a generation, and not an individual:

    If Caiphas, the High Priest, ever repented of his accusation, turned away from sin, and accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord of his life - could he be saved? Would God in his compassion save him, even though he was responsible for once claiming that the power Jesus worked in was in the power of Satan and not God?

    My answer would be: of course yes! Jesus himself says it: that "all who ever believes in him [Jesus] would never perish, but have eternal life." If Caiphas ever believed in him, I believe Jesus would make good on his promise to all mankind 'that anyone'... :)

    So therefore, if this is true, then the unforgivable sin must be something of a different caliber, and with a different concequence than the sin of life and the concequence of death. As I mentioned, Jesus later addresses Israel's "generational rejection" as the cause why he will not come and establish his kingdom then. This generational rejection can only be their official rejection of Jesus as Messiah and not individual's rejection because there were lots of people who believed in him anyways - more than the priests themselves! So somehow, this generational rejection is based on something different than the normal individual decisions of a nation... it would instead be the same kind of rejections Israel always had in the past: the government and leading people's rejection. And whenever Israel rejected God, He always judged them, and with held his promises from them, but would gladly restore them as soon as they repented. However, with Jesus, their generational rejection of him is something that would never be forgiven of them, and thus the Kingdom of God would have to wait for another - just like the rebellious generation of Israelites in the desert in Moses' time.
     
  7. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    I don't believe its mistaken to think that if Caiaphas repented he would be saved...but the point of the unforgivable sin is that by its very nature, committing it makes one incapable of repentance. Keep in mind Hebrews 6:4-8

    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

    I am in no way denying your statements about Israel's first century rejection of their Christ and the incumbant punishment thereof. History shows rather blatantly that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled Christ's Olivette prophecies. In fact, it goes further than merely that generation... but includes the ending of the Old Covenant which is what signifies Israel a people in the first place. But that Covenant is done away with along with its rites and ceremonies (Hebrews 7-8)! The people of God are no longer the Jews, but those who know the Father in heaven and do His will, which is to believe on His Son the Christ! :bow:

    <><
     
  8. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    "If a true Christian should fall away (completely), it is to their loss they can not be brought back to repentence."

    I find it hard to make the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as the sin of this category of falling away. All sin leads to death, not just that one. God allows us to reject him and reject him, each time making an appeal to us to get back to Him. However, there DOES come a time when God "hands us over to a rebellious mind" and never bothers to appeal to us again. This happens when He knows it is impossible to reach us - and he knows. It is to the loss of the rebel that this occurs. That is the point of this verse. Such a falling away can still be repented of, but the choice to do so will not be coached unless the decision is made.

    That is why the writer of Hebrew continues talking about good land that produces blessing, vs land producing thorns and thistles. The point that is not mentioned which I wish to point out is that the bad land is allowed to produce thorns and thistles for a time (being in danger of being cursed - but not yet), but in the end, it will be burned and destroyed.

    Therefore, no repentence is impossible, but the danger of God handing you over to a reprobate (rebellious) mind will remain if you continue to reject Him after having tasted all of His goodness. Once He has handed you over to it, you are almost certainly in a position to never choose repentence again - except maybe at the Throne of Judgement, when sadly Jesus will say "depart from me you who practice evil; I never knew you."
     
  9. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    So...when God hardened Pharoah's heart in Exodus, he could still have repented, only he didn't...?

    I think I'm misreading you...sorry.

    I feel like we're saying similar things with different words. If not, God will straighten one of us out on it eventually. :sorry:

    "And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained." Phil. 3:15b-16 :idea:

    Peace to all who seek it,
    <><
     
  10. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    He could have repented, yes. But a "hardened heart" is a rebellious mind. God doesn't give someone something they don't already want. :)
     
  11. Othniel

    Othniel Cup Overflowing

    151
    +0
    Yes, exactly...once more...saying the same thing with different words... :holy:

    <><
     
  12. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    hehe. you'll find that we do that a lot around here. :)

    praise God for someone who can see that too. :)
     
  13. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Dear Jeremiah;

    1. When Jesus died he paid for every sin ever committed and rose to justify our forgiveness forever. Therefore there is no sin that is not forgiven (Colossians 2:13). The only unpardinable sin (Matthew 12:31.32) is that of rejecting&nbsp;Jesus payment of sins which gives us the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) which can not be reversed after death. (Hebrews 9:27)

    2. As to asking forgiveness after having being forgiven would be foolish. We are not saved by God deciding to be mercyful after he already has (John 3:16). We are saved by believing (Acts 16:30,31) Christ died and rose to pay for "ALL OUR SINS" past, present, and future "Once" (Romans 6:10) at the cross. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

    Sorry to hear about those who disapointed your expectation of Christianity. This is why Jesus tells us to keep our eyes on him rather then people.

    God bless your search for truth and the wisdom to recognize it.
     
  14. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Some sins are unforgivable. Jesus Christ said: “Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.” (Matthew 12:31) So, then, blasphemy against God’s holy spirit, will not be forgiven. The apostle Paul alluded to such sin when he wrote: “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, . . . but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.”—Hebrews 6:4-6.

    Only God knows if a person has committed the unforgivable sin. However, Paul shed light on this matter when he wrote: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) A willful person acts deliberately, or is “obstinately and often perversely self-willed.” (Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary) Anyone willfully and obstinately continuing to practice sin after he knows the truth is not forgiven. Hence, it is not so much the sin itself as it is the heart condition, the degree of willfulness involved, that affects whether the sin is forgivable or not. On the other hand, what is likely the case when an erring Christian is deeply disturbed about his wrongdoing? His great concern probably indicates that he has not, in fact, committed an unforgivable sin.

    Certain Jewish religious leaders who opposed Jesus did commit willful, and thus unforgivable, sin. Though they saw God’s holy spirit at work through Jesus as he did good and performed miracles, those clerics ascribed his power to Beelzebub, or Satan the Devil. They sinned with their eyes wide open to the undeniable operation of God’s spirit. Thus, they committed unforgivable sin, for Jesus said: “Whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.”—Matthew 12:22-32.

    The sin of Judas Iscariot also was unforgivable. His betrayal of Jesus was the willful, deliberate culmination of a course of hypocrisy and dishonesty. For instance, when Judas saw Mary anoint Jesus with costly oil, he asked: “Why was it this perfumed oil was not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor people?” The apostle John added: “[Judas] said this, though, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief and had the money box and used to carry off the monies put in it.” Soon thereafter, Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. (John 12:1-6; Matthew 26:6-16) True, Judas felt remorse and committed suicide. (Matthew 27:1-5) But he was not forgiven, since his deliberate, persistently selfish course and his treacherous act reflected his sin against the holy spirit. How appropriate that Jesus should call Judas “the son of destruction”!—John 17:12; Mark 3:29; 14:21.
     
  15. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    aforchrist33

    You asked some questions of which I can only remember these.

    1.&nbsp; Thanks for pointing this out. &nbsp;I&nbsp;will rephrase the opening statement as "The sins of some" that should be clearer now.

    2. As for my believing paul to be the author of Hebrews,&nbsp;i base it on this evidence.

    PAUL is best known as the apostle “to the nations.” But was his ministry confined to the non-Jews? Not at all! Just before Paul was baptized and commissioned for his work, the Lord Jesus said to Ananias: “This man [Paul] is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.” (Acts 9:15; Gal. 2:8, 9) The writing of the book of Hebrews was truly in line with Paul’s commission to bear the name of Jesus to the sons of Israel.

    However, some critics doubt Paul’s writership of Hebrews. One objection is that Paul’s name does not appear in the letter. But this is really no obstacle, as many other canonical books fail to name the writer, who is often identified by internal evidence. Moreover, some feel that Paul may have deliberately omitted his name in writing to the Hebrew Christians in Judea, since his name had been made an object of hatred by the Jews there. (Acts 21:28) Neither is the change of style from his other epistles any real objection to Paul’s writership. Whether addressing pagans, Jews, or Christians, Paul always showed his ability to “become all things to people of all sorts.” Here his reasoning is presented to Jews as from a Jew, arguments that they could fully understand and appreciate.—1 Cor. 9:22.

    The internal evidence of the book is all in support of Paul’s writership. The writer was in Italy and was associated with Timothy. These facts fit Paul. (Heb. 13:23, 24) Furthermore, the doctrine is typical of Paul, though the arguments are presented from a Jewish viewpoint, designed to appeal to the strictly Hebrew congregation to which the letter was addressed. On this point Clarke’s Commentary, Volume 6, page 681, says concerning Hebrews: “That it was written to Jews, naturally such, the whole structure of the epistle proves. Had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand of them could have comprehended the argument, because unacquainted with the Jewish system; the knowledge of which the writer of this epistle everywhere supposes.” This helps to account for the difference of style when compared with Paul’s other letters.

    The discovery in about 1930 of the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) has provided further evidence of Paul’s writership. Commenting on this papyrus codex, which was written only about a century and a half after Paul’s death, the eminent British textual critic Sir Frederic Kenyon said: “It is noticeable that Hebrews is placed immediately after Romans (an almost unprecedented position), which shows that at the early date when this manuscript was written no doubt was felt as to its Pauline authorship.” On this same question, McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states pointedly: “There is no substantial evidence, external or internal, in favor of any claimant to the authorship of this epistle except Paul.”

    As to the time of writing, it has already been shown that Paul wrote the letter while in Italy. In concluding the letter, he says: “Take note that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom, if he comes quite soon, I shall see you.” (13:23) This seems to indicate that Paul was expecting an early release from prison and hoped to accompany Timothy, who had also been imprisoned but who had already been released. Thus, the final year of Paul’s first imprisonment in Rome is suggested as the date of writing, namely, 61 C.E.
     
  16. Angelo

    Angelo Warrior of Zion

    176
    +2
    Christian
    Is it true that cursing the name of God is the only unforgiveable sin? I really want to know this answer because my friends have done this before and I don't want any of them to lose a chance at salvation.
     
  17. KeysforChrist

    KeysforChrist New Member

    90
    +0
    Cursing the name of God is a sin, but it is forgivable. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - denying Christ as your Lord and Savior is the only unforgivable sin.

    There are occassions when I curse God. I get mad at something that goes wrong in my life and say God $&%^#%. That is cursing the Lord. I then ask for forgiveness and move on.

    However, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is something that is done knowingly to mock or rebuke God. You have all the facts, but chose to decide that Jesus is not Lord and Savior of your life. Better yet, you became born again, and then decide, "You know what, I'm not going to follow you anymore Jesus". Which at that point that is considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Intentionally denying God (or Jesus - same difference) is the unforgivable sin. It's almost a mute point. How can God forgive you for intentionally not wanting to be a part of His kingdom. That's like asking Osama Bin Laden to come to dinner, knowing he's got explosives attached to his belt to blow you up. God can only accept you if you first accept his invitation of salvation and follow his teachings thereafter. To be "born again" means that not only do you proclaim Jesus with your lips, but also in your heart.
     
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