Unfair Marriage

[PhileoBildad]

I first posted this thread under the Young adults board, but figured this board might lead to more thoughts..

So I've recently been confronted with an extremely frustrating truth about a close newly married friend of mine and am having a real hard time swallowing it. I understand that wives should be submissive to husbands, but I suppose what I'm frustrated is is to say to what degree does that principle stand true. If your husband completely overacts to a small situation and makes a huge decision FOR you that will hurt many of your life long friendships, shouldn't you be able to tell him you disagree and talk about it? Or does submission mean whatever the man says or decides goes?

It seems to me more like slavery.

Thoughts?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Submission doesn't not mean whatever a man says goes. Thats slavery. Which in this country feminist have done a good job at making christian men look like they want slaves. But thats not the case. A man who loves God will realize submission is not a form of control. He doesn't tell you when to pee, he doesn't tell you where to go...etc.

Its more of a hes the spiritual head of the house. So while you to some degree may feel hes somehow the only in control, remember God is the head of him! So as I said if hes really trusting in God for some things then he will help you both by doing what God says. Not what he "wants" to do.

For example me and my wife understand submission. In general terms we believe in mutual submission because we have become one as the bible says. We talk and work out things. One time my wife wanted to spend some money I sent her to buy baby formula for her sister who can't breastfeed and doesn't have alot of money. I told her thats fine with me and while I love she asked, I don't want her needed my approval of everything.

So now she understands better. But when it comes to some decisions she does come to me. We tend to pray together as a couple about any bigger decisions. She of course is welcome to voice any concerns. Then I go and ask God about her concerns and what He thinks is best. Then I decide based on what I feel God told me. And she lovingly accepts. Example when it came top what kind of visa to use to get her here people were telling her a fiance visa, but after praying I felt God was saying a spousal visa. So she accepted my answer wholeheartedly and trusts me that I am doing whats best according to what God tells me.

As a woman you have to figure out if whoever you want to be with in the future understands that submission is not slavery. And to what line they go to before it becomes control over you. Its not an easy topic, especially in the USA where outside influence is playing with everyones heads.

But yes overall don't think of it as being a slave. In the end we ALL do what God says, well assuming we choose to of course.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I first posted this thread under the Young adults board, but figured this board might lead to more thoughts..

So I've recently been confronted with an extremely frustrating truth about a close newly married friend of mine and am having a real hard time swallowing it. I understand that wives should be submissive to husbands,

Yes, but there is more to that principle than meets the eye. So hold on to that thought.

but I suppose what I'm frustrated is is to say to what degree does that principle stand true.

Paul, in Ephesians 5, outlines the duties of husbands and wives. Husbands are prone to begin at vs. 22, where wives are instructed to 'submit'. However, the instruction given that outlines household duties is an extension of the teaching that leads up to that passage, with its introduction at vs. 21 where Paul encourages ALL believers to "(submit) to one another out of reverence for Christ". Paul then instructs wives, husbands, children, slaves, and masters of slaves on how that is supposed to look in the Christian household.

If your husband completely overacts to a small situation and makes a huge decision FOR you that will hurt many of your life long friendships, shouldn't you be able to tell him you disagree and talk about it?

Yes.

Or does submission mean whatever the man says or decides goes?

No. How does that demonstrate love for the wife as Christ loved the church? It doesn't. That's the biblical standard for the husband. Now clearly if the wife is doing something such as engaging in sin, the husband has a duty to confront it. But if there is no sin involved, then the situation needs to be discussed reasonably, keeping in mind that each spouse is a brother/sister in Christ first.

I know that not everyone here agrees with my POV, but I hope my input helps.

 

[mkgal1]

If you think of a husband's "mission" (goal.....motivation....aim) to be to love His wife as Christ does.....then, her (the wife) is to encourage that "mission" (work with him towards that goal).....likewise, it would include *not* enabling his behavior when it's *not* within God's will (like being unloving and dismissive).

This is (IMO) a great example of that:

Egalitarian Christian Alliance » Abigail – A Bible Woman with Beauty and Brains

 

[LinkH]

A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. If a husband does not honor his wife, as the weaker vessel, he runs the risk of his own prayers being hindered. It can hurt his relationship with God.

If he is a believer, maybe putting him in contact with some older men in the faith and asking them to talk to him about how to treat his wife might help, and call him out for how he is acting. One of his relatives or hers might do the job, too.

If he's an unbeliever, wives married to unbelievers or those disobedient to the word are still supposed to respect their husbands, their head, as the scripture teaches. The Bible never tells wives 'see to it that he doesn't treat you as a slave.' Of course he shouldn't. It seems like most of the time when people use that kind of language, they don't mean it literally, but use it to refer to situations like you describe where things seem unfair. Wives should seek to obey God, and in some cases, that might mean putting up with some unfairness, going the extra mile, etc., but it does not mean they should sin against God. God can do quite a good job of correcting husbands who are not considerate of their wives.

A husband making decisions for his house needs to make decisions for the good of others. Jesus made a decision for the church. He decided to willingly lay down His own life for our sake. He didn't make a decision for His own enjoyment and treat us poorly.

 

[Hetta]

I first posted this thread under the Young adults board, but figured this board might lead to more thoughts..

So I've recently been confronted with an extremely frustrating truth about a close newly married friend of mine and am having a real hard time swallowing it. I understand that wives should be submissive to husbands, but I suppose what I'm frustrated is is to say to what degree does that principle stand true. If your husband completely overacts to a small situation and makes a huge decision FOR you that will hurt many of your life long friendships, shouldn't you be able to tell him you disagree and talk about it? Or does submission mean whatever the man says or decides goes?

It seems to me more like slavery.

Thoughts?

The ideas about submission are foolish, imo. We are all equals in God's eyes. I am equal to my husband, he is equal to me. When we have an issue, we discuss it and come to an agreement. Nobody has to "lead" or be the "head" or be in control. We have raised a large family in this manner, and it gives such glory to God.

Of course a wife may speak to her husband when he is behaving meanly or cruelly. If he will not listen to her, she should approach a family member or a church member.

The way you put it does sound like slavery and it should be remembered that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

[CareyGreen]

Both husband and wife are equal in value/importance in God's sight. Head-ship (a biblical term) only has to do with the roles the two take within the marriage.

If a husband is calling all the shots, then it is more like slavery, not biblical submission. A husband who is sacrificially loving and leading his wife (as Ephesians 5 instructs) should be valuing her contributions to the marriage, seeking her opinions and input, and allowing the LORD to use her in directing him as he seeks to spiritually lead the family. If he's being foolish, she has the responsibility (not only the right) to speak to him about it in strong, but loving ways. In the end, if he makes a decision that is truly bone-headed, then she is to trust the LORD to care for her and to deal with her husband as is best.

 

[Inkachu]

Phileo, that one verse ("wives, submit to your husbands") is possibly the most overused and abused verse of all time. I like to say that God didn't create us without brains, so we need to use them. If a man is using that verse to oppress, undermine, devalue, or abuse his wife in any way, he's using it incorrectly, and she has every right to speak up and stand up for herself. A man is not a mini-God. The woman owes reverence to God and no other. Respect and submission to leadership have to be earned. If a man is acting like an idiot, he doesn't deserve either. If he's got his act together, and is a good, loving, kind, honorable man, then he does. To me, it's as simple as that. Being a husband doesn't mean you're above reproach or making mistakes.

 

[PhileoBildad]

Thank you all for your thoughts and for bringing specific verses of scripture to me attention. Its encouraging to hear

 

[LinkH]

Phileo, that one verse ("wives, submit to your husbands") is possibly the most overused and abused verse of all time.

Also, one of the most ignored and rebelled against in the west. It seems like a concept where many people like to go to one extreme or the other.

The woman owes reverence to God and no other. Respect and submission to leadership have to be earned.

Ephesians 5:33 is translated with the word 'respect' or 'reverence' depending on the translation.

"Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." (KJV)

According to the KJV, a woman should reverence her husband. Some people may disagree with that translation. I don't see 'reverence' as something only reserved for God. I think people should have reverence at funerals, too. Some people think of the word in a narrower, religious sense. The word is translated as 'respect' in many other translations.

"However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."(NIV)

The word translated 'respect' here is actually, 'phobetai'. It literally translates as 'fear.' I remember in Sunday school as a child how the teacher had to explain that the 'fear of the Lord' is not like the fear of the dark, but a deep reverence and respect for the Lord, knowing better than to oppose him, or whatever was said. The New Testament talks about fearing God, fearing a ruler, and a wife fearing a husband. But I think we will probably all agree that it is talking about a reverence or respect type of fear, not some license that the one being feared is to do things to make the other one fearful.

If your marriage partner is not doing what is right, you still have to do what is right. I Peter 3 gives instructions to wives, starting in verse 1. Notice the instructions also apply to husbands if they 'obey not the word.' So a man can be disobedient to the word, an unbeliever, even, and his wife still has to do her part before God in the marriage, and follow these instructions.

So the respect for the husband doesn't have to be 'earned'--not this type of fear/reverence/respect. There may be other types of respect in marriage that can be 'earned' over time. But saying, "He hasn't earned my respect" does not absolved a wife who disobeys the scripture. If the husband hasn't earned the respect, hasn't God done enough to earn our respect by creating us and sending His Son? Hasn't Christ earned our respect by dying for our sins and rising from the grave? Isn't He worthy of our respect since the Father has given Him all power in heaven and on earth?

Our marriages are to depict the mystery of Christ and the church. When one partner is disobedient, the marriage may not exhibit the glory of God that it is supposed to. But if one individual is disobedient, the other does not have to join in. God's can be glorified in individuals as well as couples.

Especially if the man claims to be a believer, the wife should consider the fact that the Bible teaches, 'Rebuke your neighbor frankly, so that you do not share in his sin." She should point out, respectfully, what her husband is doing wrong. That's the type of thing she can do just as a fellow believer. She may be his wife, but is still a fellow believer. And she shouldn't be sinning or making it easy for him to sin, while at the same time obeying what scripture teaches in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, I Peter 3 in regard to the behavior of wives.

 

[cerette]

The Bible tells wives to be submissive to their husband. It doesn't tell husbands to make their wives submit.
So your friend's husband has no business trying to make his wife submissive, rather he should listen to what the Bible tells HIM to do: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Ep 5:25)

 

[LinkH]

But, it's not wrong to exhort a fellow believer to behave as they should.

 

[Rora47]

I first posted this thread under the Young adults board, but figured this board might lead to more thoughts..

So I've recently been confronted with an extremely frustrating truth about a close newly married friend of mine and am having a real hard time swallowing it. I understand that wives should be submissive to husbands, but I suppose what I'm frustrated is is to say to what degree does that principle stand true. If your husband completely overacts to a small situation and makes a huge decision FOR you that will hurt many of your life long friendships, shouldn't you be able to tell him you disagree and talk about it? Or does submission mean whatever the man says or decides goes?

It seems to me more like slavery.

Thoughts?

There are two answers to this... the answer that sounds good on paper, and the answer that actually works. Most people here are going to give you the first answer.

Unsurprisingly, the answer that works is God's instructions... submit to your husband and win him over with your good behavior. Gain his confidence! There is no exception clause to this, and that is because whether your husband is a bad man with a controlling temper, or a Godly man submissive to the leading of the Holy Spirit, the same thing works in your favor as a wife. This way you are a gentle and self-controlled influence driven by the Holy Spirit in his life, rather than trying to usurp him in your own strength.

A lot of people will balk at this, call me a misanthrope, etc. That isn't necessary... you know you can try both ways and see which one actually works. 'Wisdom is proven right by her actions'

 

[Inkachu]

I first posted this thread under the Young adults board, but figured this board might lead to more thoughts..

So I've recently been confronted with an extremely frustrating truth about a close newly married friend of mine and am having a real hard time swallowing it. I understand that wives should be submissive to husbands, but I suppose what I'm frustrated is is to say to what degree does that principle stand true. If your husband completely overacts to a small situation and makes a huge decision FOR you that will hurt many of your life long friendships, shouldn't you be able to tell him you disagree and talk about it? Or does submission mean whatever the man says or decides goes?

It seems to me more like slavery.

Thoughts?

First of all, the "submission" principle aimed at wives is in conjunction with the command that their husbands love them as Christ loves the church and laid down His life for it. That means a husband's love and leadership should be Christ-like; gentle, compassionate, understanding, patient, kind, selfless, and serving, willing to give up everything, including his very life, for her well-being.

So a wife is to "submit" to her husband's Christlike protection, provision, and caring. It does not refer to a dominating, controlling man. Very few women would have a problem "submitting" to the PROPER type of leadership in a husband.

 

[Rora47]

Very few women would have a problem "submitting" to the PROPER type of leadership in a husband.

That's really not saying anything, though. The commands given in the Bible usually are issues that we already struggle to do, that is why we don't have pointless things like 'get 8 hours of sleep'. It isn't just vain instruction.

Saying wives submission is conditionally based on her husbands behavior is not only not in the Bible, but it's very legalistic, akin to a person who is arrested by a police officer getting off the hook because the officer who arrested them used excessive force or did not follow proper procedures. Sure, it works in a courtroom where lawyers will get the trial thrown out, but the whole idea of Christianity is that the only way to be judged 'not guilty' is by belief in Christ. If you really think that works, consider that Adam tried the same thing in the Garden of Eden by blaming his disobedience of God's command on Eve and yet still received his own punishment.

What is in the Bible, though, is verses which tell us how to behave with unbelieving spouses and they are likewise unconditional like much of what Jesus teaches. If our role as a spouse remain when our spouses aren't even Christian, how could we possibly imagine that a wives role as a helper and responsibility to submit disappear when her husband's behavior is sub-standard [in her eyes]? Obviously the exception is sin, since sin is against God who is the head of Christ, who is the head of the husband. The result is confusing, legalistic, and usually only leads to arguments since the "correct" path of action disseminates to be centered within the relationship and not God's command, it is therefore unconstructive. This flies in the face of what God's word says about winning over an unbelieving spouse (a worst case scenario) being constructive

That's not to say that a husband will have an easier time with his wife if she sees He is obedient to the Lord, but when we are addressing women directly, I think it is a disservice to suggest their responsibility is somehow conditional to the extents that many women take it. If you think God is alright with that, then just look at how he deals with the blame shifting in Genesis--each person is responsible for his or her own obedience to the Lord, and to women, specific instructions have been given to submit.

 

[Puffinstuff]

Thank you all for your thoughts and for bringing specific verses of scripture to me attention. Its encouraging to hear

1 Peter 3:7 instructs husbands to live in understanding of his wife and to honor her (respect her) as coheirs of the grace of life so that his prayers not be hindered.

God will stop hearing his prayers in other words if he does not try and understand her and respect her as equally a child of God same as him.

7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

So its pretty serious business for a husband to be considerate,understanding to his wife and to respect her if by not doing so God will stop answering his prayers.

 

[Puffinstuff]

That's not to say that a husband will have an easier time with his wife if she sees He is obedient to the Lord, but when we are addressing women directly, I think it is a disservice to suggest their responsibility is somehow conditional to the extents that many women take it. If you think God is alright with that, then just look at how he deals with the blame shifting in Genesis--each person is responsible for his or her own obedience to the Lord, and to women, specific instructions have been given to submit.

Obedience to the Lord 1st and foremost would be to not to stand idly by and go along with sin period because that IS a sin..And that would in fact include conditional submitting to a husband (and vice versa).There is a difference in repaying sin with sin and not submitting TO sin which is in and of itself a sin.

[QUOTE If our role as a spouse remain when our spouses aren't even Christian, how could we possibly imagine that a wives role as a helper and responsibility to submit disappear when her husband's behavior is sub-standard [in her eyes]? ][/QUOTE]

She is not merely his "helper" God created Eve as an equal to Adam and He said I will make he (Adam) an ezer kenegdo.That got reduced to simply"helper".The word ezer when used in any other verses in the Bible are referring to God specifically Him being a strength/power/and rescuer/protector to us.(oh sorry and military ALLIES)So I guess we should start referring to when God rescues us/we lean on Him for strength and to protect us as our "helper"?I think its a slap in Gods face to be honest for His creation of woman in His image as an ezer(just ezer would be referring to "helper" but a superior like GOD) kenegdo (changed it to EQUAL) for Adam to be boiled down to her submitting to her husband .The emphasis that gets put on it as in an almost "no matter what" including that hes the "authority" over her does a disservice to Gods plan for marriage and why He created "woman".



And the "in her eyes" I think is a jab.As if a woman can not be as capable of discerning as her husband? It also contradicts where you said "when she sees he is being disobedient.But again ezer kenegdo if you can grasp what all that entails would go far beyond a responsibilty to just "submit"( unless he is in some sort of blatant obvious sin a 5 year old would know is wrong) to a husband or indicate that she may not be able to rightfully "judge" in her eyes if what her husbands behavior is as you called it "sub standard".

Ezer: aide:help

context in the Bible when used ?Its referring to God or a military allies but always the "helper" is "superior".

Kenegdo:corresponding to ,counterpart to,equal matching

How this gets reduced as a wife her priority obedience to God in her role is "submitting' without conditions (or lets say very few) and being his "helper" is beyond me.Wishful thinking maybe?

 

[Rora47]

No it isn't sin to submit and help/favor someone who is wicked and controlling. It is only when they ask you to sin (and you must be careful not to confuse sin with something you simply disagree with). Consider Daniel, who worked in favor of King Nebuchadnezzar. He went along with everything the king and maintained a submissive attitude up until the point where he was supposed to bow down to him. When it came to a matter of disagreement about which foods should be eaten (which is not sin, but merely a disagreement) he was tactful and offered a test so as to prove it, after which they would eat the way that was healthiest.

Also, we know that women was made a as helper to her husband in the classical sense of the word because it says that amongst the animals there were no mates suitable for Adam. No linguistic somersaults needed. Aside from that, we are also digressing into insinuations of unequal value here which is a common stumbling block thrown in the path of anyone when, more or less, anyone reflect's God's command for wives. We can use the same verse to see that Eve was made as a suitable mate, that would also imply that God made her of equal value even though her role was a mate for Adam.

I am not saying God does not have commands for husbands, of course as a husband I am well aware of them. However, if we were talking about those commands specifically like we are talking about God's commands to wives in this thread, this would be akin to a child glossing over God's command to honor his/her parents by then referring to the fact that a wife should submit to her husband... if she is not, the kids don't need to obey their mother. Let's say you don't believe in God's order of male headship, then it's a 2 way street and the husband doesn't need to love his wife if she doesn't submit to him. Clearly not the case. We are not to replace God's command with our own legalistic rules. (Matthew 15:5-6)

 

[Rora47]

This topic has come up a few times and I usually get a violent reaction, so let me explain where I am coming from here so you understand my motivation. Growing up I was son of someone who was deeply fearful, wicked, and controlling behaviors which I was challenged by for many years, not as someone who wants to excuse the behavior of bad husbands. In fact, I even told my father he was a "bad dad" and got punished for that. The point is, I still honored him because God said to, and my desire to obey God was stronger than my desire to reject my father on the basis of his bad attitude.

Overall, it has been a positive thing for me. When I was young I was often considered very mature for my age and I attribute that to the challenge I had with my parents. I never reveled in sports stars or people like that... my childhood examples were people like Daniel, and my hero has always been Jesus when He said, 'not my will, but yours' before he submitted himself to the punishment of ungodly authorities. My point is, I know first hand that God calls every Christian to obedience, and that will always be for our own good even though it's not the easiest or most comfortable.

The reason I say all this is because when I was young, I wasn't sure what was sin and what wasn't... and it caused me to worry that honoring my father was somehow not okay. That sort of legalism has caused me a lot of unnecessary anxiety over my life and I am writing what I do for those who desire to obey God, that they may understand and enjoy a clear conscience about it.

 

[Johnnz]

Any submission, whatever that might mean in a marriage, is never to a domestic despot. God's principles never condon or facilitate sinful behaviours.

John
NZ