Understanding the Limits of Sexual Freedom

[Shadow]

Hey,

Several years ago I came out as bisexual. I had always assumed I was "straight" and it never occurred to me I'd fall in love with a guy. Then, like getting struck by lightning, it happened. There is a great deal to learn from it and to grow as a person as you grapple with the often complex and contradictory issues that come up in this context.

As a kid I remember thinking of sex and lust as "sinful". When I reached my teens, I masturbated and tried to give up several times. Ultimately I failed and came to accept it was part of who I am (and much later as a pretty important way of dealing with depression). It was only after reading some of Wilhelm Reich's "The Sexual Revolution" that I began to take what are regarded as "sex-positive" views, namely that sexuality is about having the freedom to pursue pleasure and satisfaction of psychological desires and instincts. This contrasts with the "sex-negative" views in which sexual relationships are about procreation and should therefore exist only within a life-long monogamous relationship (i.e. marriage) and only between heterosexual couples capable of reproduction.

As I have got older, I have come to appreciate that there are significant limitations to this, even as someone who is part of the LGBT community. Our society is still organised around family relationships and not simply around individuals and their desires. There clearly are limits to sexual freedom based on consent- though it isn't clear why "consent" would be the line and not something else. (Where we draw the line on age of consent for example is troublingly arbitrary).

At the same time, I have never been 100% comfortable with either gay marriage or adoption. I'm not sure if I am just squeamish about the idea due to prejudice, or recognise that this is a big leap in the dark by going against what is considered the "traditional" heterosexual family and marriage. Civil Unions/Civil Partnerships seemed "enough" to achieve the legal function of recognising a relationship without having to stir up a hornets nest by fighting for "marriage equality". Maybe I would spent my life with a partner of the same sex who made me happy, but I don't think of it as to do with gender- personality counts for much more and tends to be a far more lasting basis for attraction.

More recently, I've seen transgender issues become incredibly popular online (amongst many of the far left communities I follow on reddit). Whilst I can certainly empathise with the psychological struggles trans people go through, having had to deal with the issues arising from being bisexual myself. Online I have therefore tried to be supportive and encouraging to trans-people I meet, in the hope that it may make the psychological issues easier. (It is tricky remembering the right pronoun). However, I do not agree that gender is a "social construct" and believe biology clearly does play a role. Nor am I comfortable with gender reassignment for anything other than adults (and even then, I still feel uneasy as it still sounds like self-mutilation).

There is also an openness to BDSM practices online which I continue to believe are perversions. Whilst I have fantasised along these lines and explored aspects of it through that, I'm now fairly certain any dominance or submissive roles I would play are based on long-standing issues over self-esteem and self-worth, simply projected outwards in role play. In the long run, that doesn't appear to be conducive to mental health or healthy relationships. (The only thing I will retain from it is the importance of communication, which is relevant to any relationship, but particularly to ones based on "power play").

Needless to say that expressing even these reservations in most online communities could well me labelled as homophobic or transphobic in today's polarised culture. There isn't even really a space to explain why certain ideas are right or wrong and to debate them respectfully. In the case of Transgender issues, it's alarming to see how quickly this has gone from being a non-issue to one that has become central to political discussions for many people. It isn't clear where it came from, why that change happened, how it gained traction so quickly or whether people really understand what it means as a lived experience to be in a trans-person's shoes (I clearly don't and have to really question why I feel so tolerant to something that I don't really understand).

Looking back over the struggles I've had over the past decade, I have come to realise that however far I believe "sexual freedom" actually goes, it entails a certain level of responsibility too. Its made me more open and respectful of conservative views on sex, gender and family. That can mean something like being a respectful, loving partner, including the patience to grow in a relationship and to be with someone for a life time. We all get old and we all need to be there for each other and we aren't born with the ability to love with the dedication and humility that requires. The "sexual revolution" that (arguably) began in the 1920s and 30's with Freud and grew in the 60s and 70's is far from over and it is not clear that it is going in a positive direction. Instead we appear to be heading down a blind alley based on a "tolerance" of things that we don't really understand and may be unnecessary or harmful for us. As a society, we are now more confused than ever and it is more than possible that conservative morals will make a come back if only because they offer us clarity in areas where we are most vulnerable.

So my question comes down to this:

How far do you believe people have the freedom to pursue and enjoy their sexuality? And what responsibilities do you believe come with being in a relationship and learning to care for each other in one?

And assuming you believe my sexuality is problematic (which is fine btw), why do you believe that to be the case and what would you suggest to address that?

(p.s. Whilst this is fairly broad, I thought it was more appropriate to put this in the "struggles with sexuality" sub-forum. I hope this is within the forum rules and does not constitute "promotion" and is respectful of conservatives and Christians. Thanks).

 

[HatedByAll]

The rules of this section do not allow debate. When you see debates in this section it is usually because someone started a thread on this type of subject in a more open forum section. A moderator then moves that thread to this section because of the subject matter. When this happens, it looks like there is debate in this section, but the truth is, the debate occurred elsewhere. Thus, I will limit my answer to what I have come to realize the Bible says on this subject. Do not consider my answer an invitation to debate.

First, consider Psalm 51. In particular verse 4: Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Why does David say he only sinned against God? He took advantage of Bathsheba and killed Uriah. Not only that, but his son who died because of this sin has to have a claim of being sinned against too. But, David's primary sin is that he did not believe that following God in all ways was the way to have a fulfilled life. In a way, he made Bathsheba an "idol" that was so desirable to David that he would risk his relationship with God just to fulfill his sexual desires with her. Remember that David was most favored by God. He was chosen to be the King of Israel and his seed was to be on the throne forever. Because of who he was and how he was favored over and above any other man by God, this sin, the one where he did not believe the promise of provision of God was a sin that he realized was serious enough that God had every right to punish him most severely. David also realized that his sin of adultery could cause God to change his mind and not fulfill the promises he made in the prophecies of the prophets before. He knew he really messed up and that his sin could literally ruin the future of the whole country of Israel.

The true sin was unbelief in the promises from God. The sin of having adultery and of murder were results of this sin. As serious as they are, they are secondary sins that could only occur because of the failure of trusting in God. Taking God lightly when David knew better was a must serious of sins. David realized that, and thus his repentance in Psalm 51.

Bisexuality and homosexuality are sins just like David's adultery. They are sins where we believe that to have a fulfilled life we must place more importance in loving a person of the same sex than we do in following the commands of God. The Bible spells out that the only sex we are to participate in is that that is between a husband and a wife. Anything else shows a lack of faith in God and that we make our sexual partner an idol that we try to make more important to us than our relationship with God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Having said all that, the verses of 1 Corinthians 6 1-10 tell us that homosexuals are unbelievers and unrighteous. The true sin of homosexuality is unbelief in the provision of God. He promises us a fulfilled life if we follow the guidance of his Word. If we believe that we must have sex with anyone but our married (opposite sex) partner to have a good life, we are not righteous. This is not just my opinion, this is what Paul says. Also, realize it is not just about actually having a sex life, it is also about thoughts. Matthew 5:28 tells us that Christ said "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." This verse and 1 Cor 6:9-10 together let us know that a person who lives a life to lust after others is an unbeliever and thus, unrighteous.

Is being a bisexual wrong? The real question is do you want to be considered right before God. Do you "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind?" (Luke 10:27) Do you follow the first of the ten commandments "You shall have no other gods before Me."? (Exodus 20:3)

One night thirty years ago I realized that I needed God in my life more than I wanted to love another man. I made the choice to put God first in my life and choose to believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. When I did this, I repented of my homosexual ways and chose to live a Biblical Life. I knew that it was required of me to give up my desires for men completely just like Jesus required the rich young ruler to sell everything and give it to the poor. That night my life changed and even though I have made plenty of mistakes afterwards, I can truly say that I have a much more fulfilling life now than I did before.

Shadow, I wish you the best. I see you consider yourself an atheist, so you may not even want to have the great life that is available to those who trust in Christ Jesus. But, know that I want the best for you, and with all my mind and heart I believe that the best for you is a life where you allow God to be first in your life.

 

[ll_retro.duck_ll]

Hey,

Several years ago I came out as bisexual. I had always assumed I was "straight" and it never occurred to me I'd fall in love with a guy. Then, like getting struck by lightning, it happened. There is a great deal to learn from it and to grow as a person as you grapple with the often complex and contradictory issues that come up in this context.

As a kid I remember thinking of sex and lust as "sinful". When I reached my teens, I masturbated and tried to give up several times. Ultimately I failed and came to accept it was part of who I am (and much later as a pretty important way of dealing with depression). It was only after reading some of Wilhelm Reich's "The Sexual Revolution" that I began to take what are regarded as "sex-positive" views, namely that sexuality is about having the freedom to pursue pleasure and satisfaction of psychological desires and instincts. This contrasts with the "sex-negative" views in which sexual relationships are about procreation and should therefore exist only within a life-long monogamous relationship (i.e. marriage) and only between heterosexual couples capable of reproduction.

As I have got older, I have come to appreciate that there are significant limitations to this, even as someone who is part of the LGBT community. Our society is still organised around family relationships and not simply around individuals and their desires. There clearly are limits to sexual freedom based on consent- though it isn't clear why "consent" would be the line and not something else. (Where we draw the line on age of consent for example is troublingly arbitrary).

At the same time, I have never been 100% comfortable with either gay marriage or adoption. I'm not sure if I am just squeamish about the idea due to prejudice, or recognise that this is a big leap in the dark by going against what is considered the "traditional" heterosexual family and marriage. Civil Unions/Civil Partnerships seemed "enough" to achieve the legal function of recognising a relationship without having to stir up a hornets nest by fighting for "marriage equality". Maybe I would spent my life with a partner of the same sex who made me happy, but I don't think of it as to do with gender- personality counts for much more and tends to be a far more lasting basis for attraction.

More recently, I've seen transgender issues become incredibly popular online (amongst many of the far left communities I follow on reddit). Whilst I can certainly empathise with the psychological struggles trans people go through, having had to deal with the issues arising from being bisexual myself. Online I have therefore tried to be supportive and encouraging to trans-people I meet, in the hope that it may make the psychological issues easier. (It is tricky remembering the right pronoun). However, I do not agree that gender is a "social construct" and believe biology clearly does play a role. Nor am I comfortable with gender reassignment for anything other than adults (and even then, I still feel uneasy as it still sounds like self-mutilation).

There is also an openness to BDSM practices online which I continue to believe are perversions. Whilst I have fantasised along these lines and explored aspects of it through that, I'm now fairly certain any dominance or submissive roles I would play are based on long-standing issues over self-esteem and self-worth, simply projected outwards in role play. In the long run, that doesn't appear to be conducive to mental health or healthy relationships. (The only thing I will retain from it is the importance of communication, which is relevant to any relationship, but particularly to ones based on "power play").

Needless to say that expressing even these reservations in most online communities could well me labelled as homophobic or transphobic in today's polarised culture. There isn't even really a space to explain why certain ideas are right or wrong and to debate them respectfully. In the case of Transgender issues, it's alarming to see how quickly this has gone from being a non-issue to one that has become central to political discussions for many people. It isn't clear where it came from, why that change happened, how it gained traction so quickly or whether people really understand what it means as a lived experience to be in a trans-person's shoes (I clearly don't and have to really question why I feel so tolerant to something that I don't really understand).

Looking back over the struggles I've had over the past decade, I have come to realise that however far I believe "sexual freedom" actually goes, it entails a certain level of responsibility too. Its made me more open and respectful of conservative views on sex, gender and family. That can mean something like being a respectful, loving partner, including the patience to grow in a relationship and to be with someone for a life time. We all get old and we all need to be there for each other and we aren't born with the ability to love with the dedication and humility that requires. The "sexual revolution" that (arguably) began in the 1920s and 30's with Freud and grew in the 60s and 70's is far from over and it is not clear that it is going in a positive direction. Instead we appear to be heading down a blind alley based on a "tolerance" of things that we don't really understand and may be unnecessary or harmful for us. As a society, we are now more confused than ever and it is more than possible that conservative morals will make a come back if only because they offer us clarity in areas where we are most vulnerable.

So my question comes down to this:

How far do you believe people have the freedom to pursue and enjoy their sexuality? And what responsibilities do you believe come with being in a relationship and learning to care for each other in one?

And assuming you believe my sexuality is problematic (which is fine btw), why do you believe that to be the case and what would you suggest to address that?

(p.s. Whilst this is fairly broad, I thought it was more appropriate to put this in the "struggles with sexuality" sub-forum. I hope this is within the forum rules and does not constitute "promotion" and is respectful of conservatives and Christians. Thanks).

I’ll answer this from a Christian worldview, which is what I’m presuming since you’re here haha! I'll try to keep this brief. As mentioned above, we, as Christians, believe that one may pursue and enjoy sex in so far as it is confined within the parameters mentioned in scripture (The Bible). We believe that all people are created in the image of God and would thus find their ultimate purpose in reflecting his will, nature, goodness, etc. Therefore, we will reference many different passages that explicitly state what these parameters are. Anything else that is not mentioned, though, is subject to what we can discern with sound argumentation (e.g. oral sex, masturbation, etc.) I would say that’s the general answer.

As for the responsibilities for caring for someone, there’s some principles, but the universal rule in any human relationship is to is love your neighbor as you love yourself. Depending on the relationship determines the amount of love (and standards) that must go into that relationship: marriage vs. friendship vs. business partners.

To be blunt, Christians do see a problem with it simply because it does not fall within the parameters set by God. The greatest commandment: Love the Lord your God with all that you are – supersedes but does not make obsolete loving other people. (I can cite the verses, but only if you’re interested). As for how to address it, it isn’t the desire as much as what the desire moves you to do. It’s one thing to desire or have bisexual feelings and it’s another to act upon them. We believe the Bible makes this distinction apart from what others might believe. Nonetheless, depending on your worldview/religion will determine how I can address this more. I can offer Christian arguments, but secular ones may be a bit difficult since I’d only offer some thoughts.