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Understanding The Eucharist

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Maniel, Sep 10, 2021.

Do you believe in the Eucharist?

  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. No sure

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    The Bible version of this - is that it is a memorial service no a re-enactment or time-travel back to the event.

    Christ said "This do in rememberance of me" - the act of "Showing the Lord's death until He comes" in 1Cor 11 - puts the Lord's table - the communion service squarely in the role of "memorial" of a past - fully completed event.

    Heb 10 confirms.

    11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

    Heb 7
    26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Good point. His body had not been sacrificed at that point. Had not been "offered up" which Heb 10 says was done "only once" - and then "He sat down".
     
  3. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    I bet that he cannot come up with any research. Time will tell.

    He has been spreading this lie repeatedly. The Church always taught that the Eucharist was the participation in the One sacrafice and never taught the resacraficing.
     
  4. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    For a purely practical perspective:
    The event you mentioned took place right after He fed 1000's of people so He had a huge crowd.

    First, It is evident that the Jews following Him took it literally, otherwise they wouldnt have left Him in the manner they did. 1000's of people left Him.

    Second, if Jesus was speaking metaphorically, He would have been bound as a teacher to clarify His teaching. But He didn't clarify becasue He was speaking literally.

    Third, this is the point where He lost Judas becasue he couldnt accept the hard teaching.

    I would rather stand in faith with the 11 than the 1 who rejected His teaching.
     
  5. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Great book, it explains why the majority of Christians world-wide hold the doctrines of the real presence and the means of grace in the Eucharist. (from a Lutheran perspective)

    Heaven on Earth: The Gifts of Christ in the Divine Service

    Contrary to BobRyan's post, it is neither time travel nor a reenactment; rather it is a "timeless" continuance of the Heavenly Worship (as described in the Revelation). It transcends time and space and the heaven and earth join in the eternal worship of heaven until we behold our Lord face to face joining with the eternal feast in Heaven; until then, God has given it to us here on Earth in the Mass, Divine Liturgy, Divine Service. As we pray in the Service of the Sacrament (Salutation, Preface and Sanctus; Divine Service 3, Lutheran Service Book:

    A short explanation can be found here: The Divine Service – The Preface and Proper Preface – Our Savior Lutheran Church – Bishop, CA
     
  6. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    I would suggest a little research into what "rememberenc" meant to the.Jews at that time. The original passover was a meal too. The Jew believed that by celebrating the Passover, they took part in the original passover. Remembrance is to "make present"
     
  7. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    Certainly the Catholic Catechism is where you should go to actually know what the Catholic Church teaches. I also encourage you to study John 6, not just a line or two. Realize the passage was not originally written in English. You will find that when Jesus is challenged he gets more emphatic, and the word that is translated into "eat" in English Jesus then actually changes to "masticate" or "chew" in Greek--Jesus is an excellent teacher and would not try and mislead anyone. The Mystery of the Eucharist, like the Mystery of the Trinity, has been studied, debated, and discussed now for almost two thousand years by some of the world's greatest theologians. The three leaders of the Protestant "reformation" disagreed from the start on their definitions of the Eucharist when they broke away from the Catholic Church.
     
  8. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Many Protestants, such as Lutherans, believe our Lord is physically present in the Eucharist, as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch can attest. There are minor differences between the Catholic, Anglo Catholic, Lutheran and Orthodox/Assyrian views, but they are subtle. Also, the majority Protestants accept that our Lord is at least spiritually present in the Eucharist. And even those who don’t usually regard it either as a symbol (Zwinglianism) or as a memorial (Baptists usually). The only Protestant denominations that don’t celebrate the Eucharist or Baptism are the Salvation Army and some Quakers, often those with very minimal dogma.
     
  9. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Beautiful post Mark, beautiful.
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    My understanding of the Lord's Supper is in agreement with both Protestantism and Catholicism, each theology getting one of the two major parts correct.

    Protestantism - In the OT sacrificial system, the Israelite ate part of the sacrifice itself in a fellowship sacrificial meal, with God and the priest who offered it--the priest eating his portion up in the Temple courtyard--the Israelite thereby receiving within himself, participating in, the benefits of the sacrifice.

    Correct: The Lord's Supper is the NT sacrificial meal.
    Error: The bread and wine are symbols.

    Catholicism - The Lord's Supper is the actual sacrificed body and blood itself of Christ, not just symbols thereof.
    Jesus' sacrifice is on-going, continual, (re)offered daily in the Mass.
    "Real Presence," wherein Jesus is actually present in the bread and wine.

    Correct: the Lord's Supper is a partkaing of the actual sacrificed body and blood of Christ.
    Error: a) the NT presents Jesus' sacrifice as once and for all, never presenting it as on-going, continual (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 10:10, 26-28; 1 Peter 3:18).

    b) Jesus' "real presence" in the bread and wine is a contradiction of terms; i.e.,
    living = dead.
    There is no "living" presence in the actual sacrificed dead body of the Lord, which death is the very meaning of sacrifice; i.e., it's not a sacrifice until it is dead.

    This contra-Biblical notion of acutal life in the sacrificed body leads to a quasi-idolatry regarding the nature of the bread and wine, seen in the "protocol" of its administration, the preservation of it full-time on the altar, and particularly in the "exposition of the Blessed Sacrament."

    Scripture - The Biblical notion of the Lord's Supper is:
    a) partaking of Christ's actual sacrificed body and blood themselves--just as the OT sacrificial meal was of the actual sacrificed body of the animal itself--in which through faith in Christ we participate (1 Corinthians 10:16), receive the beneifts of, Jesus' sacrifice: peace and fellowship with God and the priest (Christ) who offered it, promises of the New Covenant, access to the throne of grace, personal and intimate fellowship (Exodus 18:9-12) with God in a transforming process; and

    b) proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26), as well as our faith in Christ's sacrifice which saves.

    c) a remembrance (Luke 20:19) of his once and for all sacrifice (not a re-sacrifice, continuing sacrifice, etc.), wherein we partake of the actual sacrifice itself, thereby participating in its benefits.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  11. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church:197 in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"199 in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."200

    1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

    1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
    It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.204
    And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
    Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205

    1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

    1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207

    1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."208

    1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

    1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us "to the end,"209 even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us,210 and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:

    The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease.211

    1381
    "That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"212
    Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore
    Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
    See, Lord, at thy service low lies here a heart
    Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.
    Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived;
    How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
    What God's Son has told me, take for truth I do;
    Truth himself speaks truly or there's nothing true.213
     
  12. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    Where are you getting these doctrines from? I have never heard of a church that believed we are partaking of the dead body of our Lord in the Eucharist. The closest thing to this was Theodore of Mopsuestia, who believed the Prothesis, or Liturgy of Preparation, would cause the bread and wine to become His deceased body and blood, and then in the Epiclesis during the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Spirit would make it into the living body and blood.
     
  13. Ain't Zwinglian

    Ain't Zwinglian New Member

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    THE FIGURE OF SPEECH IN THE EUCHARIST WORDS IS A SYNECDOCHE NOT A METAPHOR NOR METONYMY.

    Interpreting: THIS IS MY BODY. How the copular verb “is” functions is what is in contention. When a copular verb is present in a sentence there is a structural bond between the copula and predicative nominative. The copula will always protect the predicate nominative so it can rename the subject of the sentence. Once the structural bond is broken the intended meaning will be altered. If there is any word substitution for the copula “is” such as “represent”, then the substitution will ALWAYS turn the predicate nominative into a DIRECT OBJECT. Again, the meaning will change.

    One might ask, “Why do you to have change in meaning of Jesus’ words?” Jesus is using the copula here so that people by simple and ordinary means of comprehension, can understand a most complex statement by Jesus.

    If it is said, the statement by Jesus is a figure of speech, then what kind figure of speech is it?

    A metaphor within a copular construction, emphasis always lies in the predicate and expands meaning of the predicate nominative. Metonymy with a copular construction lies in the subject of the sentence and functions to expand the meaning of the subject. In both of these cases, the structural bond between the copula and the predicate nominative remains intact.

    THERE IS A FIGURE OF SPEECH HERE BUT IT IS NOT A METAPHOR NOR METONYMY BUT SYNECDOCHE... substituting the part (bread) for the whole (body). A synecdoche in no way changes the meaning “This is my Body.”

    This all comes down to “What it says” vs. “What it means.” Lutherans, Orthodox and the RCC will say, “What it says is what it means.” Calvinists will take a spiritual meaning concerning Jesus’ words of Institution yet with the copula-predicate nominative union intact. Baptist theology and American Evangelicalism will interpret “is” as “represents” but this turns Jesus’ statement into “This is NOT my body.”

    Our position: “is” is always “is” despite what Bill Clinton said in the Starr Grand Jury Proceeding: “It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.”
     
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Biblical OT types. . .did they eat living flesh or non-living flesh in their fellowship meal on the sacrifice?

    In the Lord's Supper, we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26).

    Where is the Biblcal basis for the Lord's Supper being a partaking in living flesh?
    So they are partaking of the resurrected Christ rather than the sacrifice of Christ, as in the OT sacrifice, which is the pre-figure and, likewise in the OT where they ate the non-living flesh of the Paschal Lamb in the Paschal meal, the institution of the Lord's Supper?
    Where do we find this above pattern or teaching in Scripture?

    You ask where is the basis in church doctrine, I ask where is the basis in Scripture, on which all church doctrine should be based?

    The Scripture states we that in the Lord's Supper we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26), not his life.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  15. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    I want to know what denomination, group or theology, is teaching this, because in my opinion it is not scriptural, because our Lord arose from the grave bodily.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Agreed, but the pattern for the sacrifice and participation in the eating of the sacrifice is the OT sacrificial system, not the resurrection.

    Nor do I have any idea what group is teaching this. . .just as I have no idea what group was teaching salvation by faith apart from works before the Catholic monk Luther; i.e., the issue is not whose is teaching it, the issue is its basis in Scripture.

    What is the basis in Scripture for the Lord's Supper, which instituted the NT sacrificial meal on the Passover on which he died, being a partaking of the resurrected body of Christ?

    1 Corinthians 11:26 - In the Lord's Supper we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes, not his lfe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's the same body and blood.

    So I'm not sure why a need of distinction. The Jesus who is seated at the right hand of the Father is the same Jesus we receive in, with, and under the bread and wine. This is the Jesus who died for our sins, and whose sacrifice we are partakers of here in the Blessed Sacrament of His Supper.

    The body that was broken for us, and the blood that was poured out for us is the same body that is raised up, ascended, and belongs to Him that fills all things.

    The same flesh, the same blood, the same Jesus.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  18. o_mlly

    o_mlly Active Member

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    I favor combining the reflections of John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and, soon to be Blessed, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. At Eucharist, we experience a moment in eternity: Christ's sacrifice, once and for all, is made present.

    In reflecting on the Cana miracle, Chrysostom and Augustine note that in eternity the water is wine as all moments, past and future, in eternity are present. Sheen reflects on how in the natural order, the hierarchy of living things transforms the lower into higher forms in order that the lower might share life more abundantly. In the Eucharist, the bread and wine that the living Christ consumed, and in consuming transformed them into Himself, is made present to us as His body, blood, soul and divinity for us to consume that we might have life everlasting.

    John Chrysostom (Homily 22 on John's Gospel) says,"But now to show that it is He who transmutes water in the vine plants, and who converts the rain by its passage through the root into wine, He effected that in a moment at the wedding which in the plant is long in doing."

    In De Trinitate, Augustine says that miracles are the acceleration of events that occur in nature over time. Significantly, he begins his explanation by saying that God draws the rainwater through the roots to the branches of the vine and makes wine. Christ's changing of the water into wine at Cana is the same process done with "unusual speed" (De Trin. III, 5).

    And Fulton J. Sheen, (Life of Christ) reflects on the Last Supper:

    Everything in nature has to have communion in order to live; and through it what is lower is transformed into what is higher: chemical into plants, plants into animals, animals into man. And man? Should he not be elevated through communion with Him Who “came down” from heaven to make man a partaker of the Divine nature? …

    When Our Lord, after He changed the bread and wine to His Body and Blood, told His Apostles to eat and drink, He was doing for the soul of man what food and drink do for the body. Unless the plants sacrifice themselves to being plucked up from the roots, they cannot nourish or commune with man. The sacrifice of what is lowest must precede communion with what is higher. First His death was mystically represented; then communion followed. The lower is transformed into the higher; chemicals into plants; plants into animals; chemicals, plants, and animals into man; and man into Christ by communion. Animals have life more abundantly than plants; man has life more abundantly than animals. He said that He came to give a life beyond the human. As the oxygen could not live the more abundant life of the plant, unless the plant came down to it, so neither could man share Divine Life unless Our Lord came down to give it.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Then why do you object to it being the sacrificed body as in its OT pattern of the sacrifices for sin, which Jesus' death was?

    1) In Scripture, the sacrificial meals were on the sacrifice, which by definition is death.

    2) Jesus instiuted the Lord's Supper at the meal of the Passover Lamb sacrifice (death).

    3) In the Lord's Supper we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthians 11:26),
    not his resurrection.

    Your Biblical basis for partaking of Jesus resurrected living body?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The apostle Paul.

    In the Lord's Supper, we proclaim the Lord's death until he comes (1 Corinthains 11:26), not his life.
     
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