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The prior thread is found on 3/20/23 “Analysis of Rick Warren….” examines Warren’s basic hermeneutics.
This thread examines three obscure examples from the NT to establish women’s ordination.
1. THE DAY OF PENTECOST Warren states “On that day at Pentecost, we know women were in the upper room. We know women were filled with the Holy Spirit; we know that women were preaching in languages that other people couldn’t [understand], to a mixed audience. It wasn’t just men—women were preaching on the Day of Pentecost.”
Were women present on the day of Pentecost preaching as Warren claims? The answer is there is NO EVIDENCE any of the 120 present in the upper room were present on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2 makes clear ONLY the twelve disciples now called Apostles were present.
In Acts 1 prior to Jesus ascension and the gathering of the 120, Luke states, “Gathering them together, Jesus commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” The Pentecost event will occur in just a few days.
Then the twelve disciples go into Jerusalem to the upper room and we have a listing of the 120 present: 1) each disciple by name, 2) women, 3) Mary 4) others and 5) Matthias and Barsabbas Justus, of whom Matthias was chose to replace Judas.
Luke now calls the Matthias and the Eleven for the first time “apostles.” (1:26) And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.
The question here is, who are the “they’ all gathered together? Rick Warren thinks they were some of the 120 including women. Rick Warren is wrong. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE ANY WOMEN WERE PRESENT ALONG SIDE OF THE TWELVE DISCIPLES.
Evidence from Acts 2 indicates that only the 12 disciples now called apostles are present when the Holy Spirit descends upon them with the pillar of fire and the ability to speak known unlearned languages. This is evidence by:
1) the text explicit states “only Peter and the eleven” (Acts 2:14) were present speaking in tongues.
2) countering the accusation the Apostles are drunk, (Acts 2:15) Peter states "these men are not drunk." The Greek οὗτοι is a plural masculine demonstrative pronoun only referring to males, as “these men are not drunk.” If Luke wanted to refer to “both men and women not being drunk” he would have used Ταῦτα the neuter form of the pronoun. And if Luke only wanted to refer to women as in “these women are not drunk” he would have used αὗταί or the feminine form of the demonstrative pronoun.
The pillar of fire is at least a divine marker indicating the 12 disciples have the authority to begin Christian baptism. The pillar of fire demonstrates apostolic authority where as the speaking in tongue demonstrates the unleasing of the Holy Spirit and can be bestowed on any believer.
3) Only the twelve apostles are present to the Jewish response to Peter’s sermon. (Acts 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Contextually, only the twelve disciples now apostles are present.
Warren continues stating from the Pentecost text, “Yep, in the church, everybody gets to pray, everybody gets to preach, everybody gets to prophesy.” Warren is dead wrong about women preaching in Acts 2. We have no evidence any of the 120 were present.
However, Warren is partially right...everyone gets to pray and everyone gets to prophesy, but per Paul's statements elsewhere NOT EVERYBODY GETS TO PREACH A SERMON AND ADMINISTER THE SACRAMENTS AS THE SHEPARD OF A CONGREGATION.
2. The Great Commission Warren states: Who authorized women to teach? Jesus. “All authority is given to me; therefore, teach. All authority is given to me; therefore, baptize.” You got a problem with the Great Commission. I had to repent when I actually looked at the Great Commission. I had to say, “It’s not just for ordained men; it’s for everybody.”
The Great commission has nothing to do with the ordination. Ordination confers an office on an individual by which the Word of God is publically preached and the Sacraments are administered by order and in the name of a specific Christian congregation.
Warren fails to make the distinction between an evangelist and called pastor.
Scripture gives no qualifications for evangelists as seen in the Great Commission therefore children and teenagers can participate. This is not to say children and teenagers are qualified for the pastoral office.
However, certain parts of the great commission are for called pastors. Are children and teenagers called to baptize and administer holy communion? Paul disqualifies them and as too young. Baptism and the Lord’s supper is an official act of the Church. And if my chance children do baptize, it is considered NOT RIGHT ORDER.
Ordinarily, the local church has selected someone from its midst to carry out Baptisms on behalf of all and, by extension, on behalf of Christ. This is because God has established a particular office to preach and administer the Sacraments publicly within the local congregation. So when the pastor administers the Baptism, he does so on behalf of the local congregation, namely, the priesthood of all believers
A pastor must be qualified for such work, whose qualifications and official functions are exactly defined in Scripture, Titus 1:5; Acts 14:23; 20:28; 2 Tim. 2:2.
These qualifications of the pastoral office Warren refuses to acknowledge simply because there are too many interpretations of these qualifications
3. Mary Magdalene. Warren states, And then the third thing that changed my mind—see, none of this had to do with culture; it had to do with Scripture—and then all of a sudden, I noticed that the very first sermon, the very first Christian sermon, the message of the gospel of Good News of the Resurrection, Jesus chose a woman to deliver it to men. He had Mary Magdalene go and tell the disciples. Now, that clearly wasn’t an accident. It was intentional. It’s a whole new world. Now he has a woman go tell the apostles. Can a woman teach an apostle? Evidently. [Jesus] did it on the first day—he chose her to be the first preacher of the gospel.
Mary was not the first preacher of the gospel. Peter was. And it was on the day of Pentecost. Mary obeyed the angel’s command and conveyed information to Peter what the angel told her. In this sense, Mary was a messenger.
Mary Magdalene is no more of a “called” preacher of the Word for delivering a message to Peter, than a child student being a called a “certified teacher” for bringing a school notice home to their parents. This passage has nothing to do about church governance---and individual administering the Gospel on behalf of the congregation. Being a messenger is not on Paul’s qualification list for being a Pastor.
Warren refuses to allow the qualification passages of Scripture to enter into the discussion. This is bizzare. If for example, I wanted to know something of the doctrine of election, I would go to Eph. 1&2 and Romans 9. This is where election is clearly taught. I wouldn’t go to the Sermon on the Mount as it has nothing to do with election. For Warren, qualification passages are dismissed in favor of obscure passages.
Bonus: Andy Wood, the Pastor who succeeded Rick Warren has made equally and more troubling statements on examples of Women’s ordination in Scripture. He states "The question to wrestle through in the New Testament is were there both men and women who had the apostleship gift, the pastoral gift, the evangelist, shepherd, teacher?"
Wood suggest the Bible evidence is women were apostles in the NT and cites Romans 16:7 as a prooftext. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[d] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
What is the problem here? Wood thinks Junia is a woman. No one knows for sure who Junia was or whether Junia was a man or a woman. Unbelievable. So Wood is basing his belief on an unclear text.
Secondly, Wood fails to make the distinction between the wider and narrowing meaning of an apostle. The narrow meaning would be the twelve as enumerated in Acts 1.
Paul is the exception as a special apostle. The wider usage of the term is any Christian sent out such as a missionary. Barnabas is an example here.
Furthermore the criteria for being one of the twelve apostles is equally spelled out in Acts 1. 21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Junia is not listed in Acts 1 and therefore she/he cannot under any circumstances be a called apostle in the narrow sense. Wood sinks.
This thread examines three obscure examples from the NT to establish women’s ordination.
1. THE DAY OF PENTECOST Warren states “On that day at Pentecost, we know women were in the upper room. We know women were filled with the Holy Spirit; we know that women were preaching in languages that other people couldn’t [understand], to a mixed audience. It wasn’t just men—women were preaching on the Day of Pentecost.”
Were women present on the day of Pentecost preaching as Warren claims? The answer is there is NO EVIDENCE any of the 120 present in the upper room were present on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2 makes clear ONLY the twelve disciples now called Apostles were present.
In Acts 1 prior to Jesus ascension and the gathering of the 120, Luke states, “Gathering them together, Jesus commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” The Pentecost event will occur in just a few days.
Then the twelve disciples go into Jerusalem to the upper room and we have a listing of the 120 present: 1) each disciple by name, 2) women, 3) Mary 4) others and 5) Matthias and Barsabbas Justus, of whom Matthias was chose to replace Judas.
Luke now calls the Matthias and the Eleven for the first time “apostles.” (1:26) And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.
The question here is, who are the “they’ all gathered together? Rick Warren thinks they were some of the 120 including women. Rick Warren is wrong. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE ANY WOMEN WERE PRESENT ALONG SIDE OF THE TWELVE DISCIPLES.
Evidence from Acts 2 indicates that only the 12 disciples now called apostles are present when the Holy Spirit descends upon them with the pillar of fire and the ability to speak known unlearned languages. This is evidence by:
1) the text explicit states “only Peter and the eleven” (Acts 2:14) were present speaking in tongues.
2) countering the accusation the Apostles are drunk, (Acts 2:15) Peter states "these men are not drunk." The Greek οὗτοι is a plural masculine demonstrative pronoun only referring to males, as “these men are not drunk.” If Luke wanted to refer to “both men and women not being drunk” he would have used Ταῦτα the neuter form of the pronoun. And if Luke only wanted to refer to women as in “these women are not drunk” he would have used αὗταί or the feminine form of the demonstrative pronoun.
The pillar of fire is at least a divine marker indicating the 12 disciples have the authority to begin Christian baptism. The pillar of fire demonstrates apostolic authority where as the speaking in tongue demonstrates the unleasing of the Holy Spirit and can be bestowed on any believer.
3) Only the twelve apostles are present to the Jewish response to Peter’s sermon. (Acts 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Contextually, only the twelve disciples now apostles are present.
Warren continues stating from the Pentecost text, “Yep, in the church, everybody gets to pray, everybody gets to preach, everybody gets to prophesy.” Warren is dead wrong about women preaching in Acts 2. We have no evidence any of the 120 were present.
However, Warren is partially right...everyone gets to pray and everyone gets to prophesy, but per Paul's statements elsewhere NOT EVERYBODY GETS TO PREACH A SERMON AND ADMINISTER THE SACRAMENTS AS THE SHEPARD OF A CONGREGATION.
2. The Great Commission Warren states: Who authorized women to teach? Jesus. “All authority is given to me; therefore, teach. All authority is given to me; therefore, baptize.” You got a problem with the Great Commission. I had to repent when I actually looked at the Great Commission. I had to say, “It’s not just for ordained men; it’s for everybody.”
The Great commission has nothing to do with the ordination. Ordination confers an office on an individual by which the Word of God is publically preached and the Sacraments are administered by order and in the name of a specific Christian congregation.
Warren fails to make the distinction between an evangelist and called pastor.
Scripture gives no qualifications for evangelists as seen in the Great Commission therefore children and teenagers can participate. This is not to say children and teenagers are qualified for the pastoral office.
However, certain parts of the great commission are for called pastors. Are children and teenagers called to baptize and administer holy communion? Paul disqualifies them and as too young. Baptism and the Lord’s supper is an official act of the Church. And if my chance children do baptize, it is considered NOT RIGHT ORDER.
Ordinarily, the local church has selected someone from its midst to carry out Baptisms on behalf of all and, by extension, on behalf of Christ. This is because God has established a particular office to preach and administer the Sacraments publicly within the local congregation. So when the pastor administers the Baptism, he does so on behalf of the local congregation, namely, the priesthood of all believers
A pastor must be qualified for such work, whose qualifications and official functions are exactly defined in Scripture, Titus 1:5; Acts 14:23; 20:28; 2 Tim. 2:2.
These qualifications of the pastoral office Warren refuses to acknowledge simply because there are too many interpretations of these qualifications
3. Mary Magdalene. Warren states, And then the third thing that changed my mind—see, none of this had to do with culture; it had to do with Scripture—and then all of a sudden, I noticed that the very first sermon, the very first Christian sermon, the message of the gospel of Good News of the Resurrection, Jesus chose a woman to deliver it to men. He had Mary Magdalene go and tell the disciples. Now, that clearly wasn’t an accident. It was intentional. It’s a whole new world. Now he has a woman go tell the apostles. Can a woman teach an apostle? Evidently. [Jesus] did it on the first day—he chose her to be the first preacher of the gospel.
Mary was not the first preacher of the gospel. Peter was. And it was on the day of Pentecost. Mary obeyed the angel’s command and conveyed information to Peter what the angel told her. In this sense, Mary was a messenger.
Mary Magdalene is no more of a “called” preacher of the Word for delivering a message to Peter, than a child student being a called a “certified teacher” for bringing a school notice home to their parents. This passage has nothing to do about church governance---and individual administering the Gospel on behalf of the congregation. Being a messenger is not on Paul’s qualification list for being a Pastor.
Warren refuses to allow the qualification passages of Scripture to enter into the discussion. This is bizzare. If for example, I wanted to know something of the doctrine of election, I would go to Eph. 1&2 and Romans 9. This is where election is clearly taught. I wouldn’t go to the Sermon on the Mount as it has nothing to do with election. For Warren, qualification passages are dismissed in favor of obscure passages.
Bonus: Andy Wood, the Pastor who succeeded Rick Warren has made equally and more troubling statements on examples of Women’s ordination in Scripture. He states "The question to wrestle through in the New Testament is were there both men and women who had the apostleship gift, the pastoral gift, the evangelist, shepherd, teacher?"
Wood suggest the Bible evidence is women were apostles in the NT and cites Romans 16:7 as a prooftext. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[d] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
What is the problem here? Wood thinks Junia is a woman. No one knows for sure who Junia was or whether Junia was a man or a woman. Unbelievable. So Wood is basing his belief on an unclear text.
Secondly, Wood fails to make the distinction between the wider and narrowing meaning of an apostle. The narrow meaning would be the twelve as enumerated in Acts 1.
Paul is the exception as a special apostle. The wider usage of the term is any Christian sent out such as a missionary. Barnabas is an example here.
Furthermore the criteria for being one of the twelve apostles is equally spelled out in Acts 1. 21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Junia is not listed in Acts 1 and therefore she/he cannot under any circumstances be a called apostle in the narrow sense. Wood sinks.
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