Understanding Free Will

[Davy]

One group believes God gave us free will to make our own choices, another group believes God has already preordained one's fate. How is it really?

It should be obvious that God did not create us like robots, automatically programmed to love Him. Real love doesn't work that, we all should know just by this life, especially if you have children. If we programmed our child to say they love us, with it not coming from their own heart, what would it mean? It wouldn't be real or genuine. Same with our Heavenly Father. He wants us to love and follow Him.

So what about those Bible cases where He divinely intervened in their lives, and forced them to do His Will, like Jonah? Jonah even tried to kill himself to get out of the duty God gave him. But God wouldn't allow, and made Jonah do His Will.

Also there's the case of Apostle Paul before he was converted directly by Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Paul (then called Saul) had a letter of authority to hunt down Christians, so he had to have been familiar with The Gospel to recognize them. Jesus divinely intervened with Paul, converting him, which means taking Paul's free will choice to believe away.

Because of those examples of God divinely intervening in certain of His servants lives, some have difficulty understanding this difference, and how those still have free will like the rest of us.

John 17:5-6
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
KJV

Lord Jesus above is speaking of His Apostles whom He chose. He had said before that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). When He appeared to them at His 1st coming and told them to follow Him, they didn't argue, they got up and followed. The above shows why they followed, because The Father already owned the Apostles.

That shows divine intervention with Christ's Apostles. They were not only called, but chosen. And Jesus then showed what for, so that others that might believe on Him through their word (i.e., through their preaching of The Gospel).

Simply, Christ's Apostles were to be a foundation structure for His Church, a foundation which began back in the Old Testament with the Patriarchs and prophets (Ephesians 2).

Can we all be chosen ones like them? No, but all believers on Christ Jesus are indeed 'called'. But it is the example of God divinely intervening in the lives of His chosen 'sent' ones that suggests their free will is limited, whereas those called only can use their free will to not follow God. This was especially proven with Jonah. He literally tried... to not obey God, but God would not allow it, showing that Jonah was a chosen one.

 

[Freth]

We are chosen from the foundation of the world, to be in Him in love.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.​

We are all called to good works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.​

Some have a higher calling than others, but we all do work for the Lord. I think the fact that some didn't seem to have a choice points to God's ultimate authority as our creator, to command us what His will is. This shouldn't be taken lightly.

Sabbath blessings!

 

[Mr. M]

One group believes God gave us free will to make our own choices, another group believes God has already preordained one's fate. How is it really?

I have noticed this has been the topic of a few threads lately, so I would like to weigh in here,
since you have shown yourself a sincere brother in Christ, and not looking for contentions. I believe
that using the word 'Free' is the misnomer. I would suggest that there is self-will and God's Will.
Exercising self-will, which I am convinced by decades of experience that all Christians slip into
and drift to "the left hand or the right" and need the chastening of the Lord for a course correction.
This is not a willful, presumptuous sin, but a decision made based on the appearance of sound reason,
and a lack of sufficient prayer and "waiting on the Lord". In other words, incarnate laziness.
Because we have received the promise of the Holy Spirit as a free gift, paid for by the blood of Christ, this discipline does not come with a personal price beyond a humble and contrite spirit to receive.
Anyone who continues in a life of self-will, never surrendering to the Will of God for their life, which
is hidden with Christ [Colossians 3:3] will pay the ultimate price.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is the conclusion of the matter which Paul has laid out in this chapter of Romans and provides
the proof-text that the only FREE Will is found in slavery to Christ, for He paid the ransom for us.
Self-will is never 'free', but always comes with a price, be it discipline, or death.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you
have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

In regard to the confusion created by the idea of pre-destination:
Romans 8:
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
This does not remove anyone's self-will from the equation, all this is saying is that God by foreknowledge is able to plan accordingly for those who are willing to do His Will. This becomes
tremendously precautionary, as so many having accepted Christ, later make their own decisions
as to how to live their "Christian life", and risk hearing "I never knew you". We are instructed to
seek that Will of God repeatedly throughout our life. How often? Obey the Lord and follow His lead,
"Let your kingdom come, let Your will be done...and give us our daily bread".
I say this means daily. I advise those who I have discipled to pray the Lord's prayer and mean it.
Accept what comes your way each day as God's Sovereign Will, and He will not tempt you to sin.
Your faith will be tried like a precious metal to continue to abide, and obey in any circumstance, but
the only sin is to turn and go your own way. Face life's challenges in the Power of Faith. The free
gift still demands obedience, and the surrender of self-will daily.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

One group believes God gave us free will to make our own choices, another group believes God has already preordained one's fate. How is it really?

It should be obvious that God did not create us like robots, automatically programmed to love Him. Real love doesn't work that, we all should know just by this life, especially if you have children. If we programmed our child to say they love us, with it not coming from their own heart, what would it mean? It wouldn't be real or genuine. Same with our Heavenly Father. He wants us to love and follow Him.

So what about those Bible cases where He divinely intervened in their lives, and forced them to do His Will, like Jonah? Jonah even tried to kill himself to get out of the duty God gave him. But God wouldn't allow, and made Jonah do His Will.

Also there's the case of Apostle Paul before he was converted directly by Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Paul (then called Saul) had a letter of authority to hunt down Christians, so he had to have been familiar with The Gospel to recognize them. Jesus divinely intervened with Paul, converting him, which means taking Paul's free will choice to believe away.

Because of those examples of God divinely intervening in certain of His servants lives, some have difficulty understanding this difference, and how those still have free will like the rest of us.

John 17:5-6
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
KJV

John 17:16-20
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
KJV

Lord Jesus above is speaking of His Apostles whom He chose. He had said before that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). When He appeared to them at His 1st coming and told them to follow Him, they didn't argue, they got up and followed. The above shows why they followed, because The Father already owned the Apostles.

That shows divine intervention with Christ's Apostles. They were not only called, but chosen. And Jesus then showed what for, so that others that might believe on Him through their word (i.e., through their preaching of The Gospel).

Simply, Christ's Apostles were to be a foundation structure for His Church, a foundation which began back in the Old Testament with the Patriarchs and prophets (Ephesians 2).

Can we all be chosen ones like them? No, but all believers on Christ Jesus are indeed 'called'. But it is the example of God divinely intervening in the lives of His chosen 'sent' ones that suggests their free will is limited, whereas those called only can use their free will to not follow God. This was especially proven with Jonah. He literally tried... to not obey God, but God would not allow it, showing that Jonah was a chosen one.

We are chosen after we choose Him first. Paul, though encountering Christ in such a miraculous way , still had to choose to follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Even Christ asked him why He was persecuting Him. Laying conviction before him first, causing blindness second and kept him in shock for several days. It was not until his sight was restored that he belived and was baptized. Paul needed a lot of convincing before he would turn away from being a Pharisee.
Be blessed.

 

[Mr. M]

We are chosen after we choose Him first. Paul, though encountering Christ in such a miraculous way , still had to choose to follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Even Christ asked him why He was persecuting Him. Laying conviction before him first, causing blindness second and kept him in shock for several days. It was not until his sight was restored that he belived and was baptized. Paul needed a lot of convincing before he would turn away from being a Pharisee.
Be blessed.

This is how he states the situation, knowing full well the consequences of failure being nothing
less that blatant disobedience to God's Will.
1 Corinthians 9:
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes,
woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted
with a stewardship.
The compulsion to serve Christ comes from fully comprehending the consequences of failure.
Many express the notion that there are no consequences to disobedience, as if Christ died
for the liberty to do as we please. An interesting scriptural acrobatics are required to come
to that conclusion.

 

[Davy]

I have noticed this has been the topic of a few threads lately, so I would like to weigh in here,
since you have shown yourself a sincere brother in Christ, and not looking for contentions. I believe
that using the word 'Free' is the misnomer. I would suggest that there is self-will and God's Will.
Exercising self-will, which I am convinced by decades of experience that all Christians slip into
and drift to "the left hand or the right" and need the chastening of the Lord for a course correction.
This is not a willful, presumptuous sin, but a decision made based on the appearance of sound reason,
and a lack of sufficient prayer and "waiting on the Lord". In other words, incarnate laziness.
Because we have received the promise of the Holy Spirit as a free gift, paid for by the blood of Christ, this discipline does not come with a personal price beyond a humble and contrite spirit to receive.
Anyone who continues in a life of self-will, never surrendering to the Will of God for their life, which
is hidden with Christ [Colossians 3:3] will pay the ultimate price.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is the conclusion of the matter which Paul has laid out in this chapter of Romans and provides
the proof-text that the only FREE Will is found in slavery to Christ, for He paid the ransom for us.
Self-will is never 'free', but always comes with a price, be it discipline, or death.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed?
For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you
have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

In regard to the confusion created by the idea of pre-destination:
Romans 8:
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
This does not remove anyone's self-will from the equation, all this is saying is that God by foreknowledge is able to plan accordingly for those who are willing to do His Will. This becomes
tremendously precautionary, as so many having accepted Christ, later make their own decisions
as to how to live their "Christian life", and risk hearing "I never knew you". We are instructed to
seek that Will of God repeatedly throughout our life. How often? Obey the Lord and follow His lead,
"Let your kingdom come, let Your will be done...and give us our daily bread".
I say this means daily. I advise those who I have discipled to pray the Lord's prayer and mean it.
Accept what comes your way each day as God's Sovereign Will, and He will not tempt you to sin.
Your faith will be tried like a precious metal to continue to abide, and obey in any circumstance, but
the only sin is to turn and go your own way. Face life's challenges in the Power of Faith. The free
gift still demands obedience, and the surrender of self-will daily.

Yeah, the way I describe that is 'cutting off the bridge with The Holy Spirit'.

We can choose to listen to The Holy Spirit warning us about something wrong we're getting ready to do, or we can choose to not listen. I believe just as with personal relations with a brother, if we get advice from that brother looking out for us, but we never listen, the brother will eventually just stop giving advice. I believe The Holy Spirit works that way for the Christian also. If we listen to our flesh, or to the world, and do that long enough, He will stop giving us advice. I call that cutting off the bridge.

 

[Mr. M]

Yeah, the way I describe that is 'cutting off the bridge with The Holy Spirit'.

We can choose to listen to The Holy Spirit warning us about something wrong we're getting ready to do, or we can choose to not listen. I believe just as with personal relations with a brother, if we get advice from that brother looking out for us, but we never listen, the brother will eventually just stop giving advice. I believe The Holy Spirit works that way for the Christian also. If we listen to our flesh, or to the world, and do that long enough, He will stop giving us advice. I call that cutting off the bridge.

Amen. My understanding of the perfect Law of liberty from James, which only works when we are
"slow to speak,(and act) and quick (instant) to listen.

 

[Mr. M]

It was not until his sight was restored that he belived and was baptized.

I would add that the three day delay had other reasons behind them.
Acts 9:
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

The sequence of events enabled the Lord to present Paul to the others who were in fear of him,
that he was now a chosen vessel.

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm
he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

Ananias laid his hands on Paul to receive sight and receive the Holy Spirit.
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said,
“Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me
that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once;
and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the
disciples at Damascus.

Saul was now fully equipped to begin his ministry.
20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called
on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them
bound to the chief priests?”

 

[Davy]

We are chosen after we choose Him first. Paul, though encountering Christ in such a miraculous way , still had to choose to follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Even Christ asked him why He was persecuting Him. Laying conviction before him first, causing blindness second and kept him in shock for several days. It was not until his sight was restored that he belived and was baptized. Paul needed a lot of convincing before he would turn away from being a Pharisee.
Be blessed.

The meaning for 'chosen' I'm describing per the examples in God's Word is about the office of Christ's Apostles. Paul was one of the best examples, because he was working against Christ when Jesus converted him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). So when Lord Jesus said many are called, but few chosen, He was not... speaking of us all as chosen. We are all 'called', but we are not all 'sent' ones, which is the meaning of a chosen Apostle. And one of the main indicators of that is they did not choose, Christ chose them, especially in the case of Apostle Paul.