Understanding Calvinism

[2thePoint]

You got it wrong regarding Calvinism. We do not say the lost are "literally" dead. We say they are SPIRITUALLY dead.

Forgive my impreciseness, is this better?

C says the lost are spiritually literally as dead as Lazarus.

 

[2thePoint]

Allow me to clarify even further:

Spiritual/physical is not the same as figurative/literal. To be spiritually dead, per scripture, is to be figuratively dead; that is, it is not literal because a literally dead spirit could do nothing. Arminians would agree that the lost are spiritually/figuratively dead, while Calvinists argue that the lost are spiritually/literally dead, because they say "the dead cannot respond to anything and have to be given life first".

Hope that helps.

 

[Pinkman]

Every Calvinist confession explicitly rejects the idea that God authors sin. .....

Also Cals say man has free will but only free to sin as the will follows from the heart. But who created their heart sinful if it was not God. What man chose his birth ?

Therefore Calvinists may explicitly reject God being the author of sin but implicitly enforce it.

In answer to the question "If God created/predestined/for-odained man reprobate, how can God hold man responsible for what God himself did?" Cygnus explains the God 'ministered' to the reprobate'.

When was this ?

Why is this not mentioned in the Bible ?

Why did God bother if he created them reprobate in the first place ?

Does not make sense does it.

What about all the texts that prove man has uncaused free will, not infinite free will, nobody's claimed that but more than enough free will to be held responsible for his own sin. This is what the Bible says.

 

[AndOne]

Allow me to clarify even further:

Spiritual/physical is not the same as figurative/literal. To be spiritually dead, per scripture, is to be figuratively dead; that is, it is not literal because a literally dead spirit could do nothing. Arminians would agree that the lost are spiritually/figuratively dead, while Calvinists argue that the lost are spiritually/literally dead, because they say "the dead cannot respond to anything and have to be given life first".

Hope that helps.

.....and the Calvinists are right.

 

[2thePoint]

.....and the Calvinists are right.

Thank you for confirming that Calvinists believe the lost are literally/spiritually dead, such that they cannot do anything just as a dead body cannot do anything.

Which means, then, that the lost cannot possibly do anything either good or bad; they cannot sin, "willfully" or otherwise. They're either dead or they're not; they cannot be "only mostly dead".

 

[AndOne]

Thank you for confirming that Calvinists believe the lost are literally/spiritually dead, such that they cannot do anything just as a dead body cannot do anything.

yes - thats what scripture teaches..

Which means, then, that the lost cannot possibly do anything either good or bad; they cannot sin, "willfully" or otherwise. They're either dead or they're not; they cannot be "only mostly dead".

says you - but not scripture...

 

[2thePoint]

says you - but not scripture...

This is simple logic, not what I made up. If Calvinism teaches the literal deadness of the spirit rendering it incapable of doing anything, then "anything" means "anything" and there are no exceptions, even to do evil. Simple logic.

Another instance of Calvinist fallacy is the fact that scripture teaches the saved are "dead to sin". Since C defines "dead" as literal and a state of total incapacity, then they must admit that the saved are incapable of sinning--- which is utterly false. Once again, C's fallacious foundation is its own worst enemy.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is simple logic, not what I made up. If Calvinism teaches the literal deadness of the spirit rendering it incapable of doing anything, then "anything" means "anything" and there are no exceptions, even to do evil. Simple logic.

Another instance of Calvinist fallacy is the fact that scripture teaches the saved are "dead to sin". Since C defines "dead" as literal and a state of total incapacity, then they must admit that the saved are incapable of sinning--- which is utterly false. Once again, C's fallacious foundation is its own worst enemy.

It is you that abides in fallacies , scripture maintains a person can be dead and alive with different respects ,

"She who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives." (1Timothy 5:6)




and so your either/or concept is utterly false.

 

[2thePoint]

It is you that abides in fallacies , scripture maintains a person can be dead and alive with different respects ,

"She who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives." (1Timothy 5:6)




and so your either/or concept is utterly false.

Not at all. In fact, Calvinism engages in "special pleading": dead only means completely dead when it supports our theory, but "sorta dead" when it doesn't. We can ignore figures of speech and the difference between literal and figurative when it suits us. We can continually use the "dead as Lazarus" tactic to support Total Inability while simultaneously allowing Lazarus to be not quite so dead when it comes to sin. Very convenient-- and fallacious.

PS: you might want to lay off the shouting through big, bold type all the time. Just a suggestion.

 

[cygnusx1]

Not at all. In fact, Calvinism engages in "special pleading": dead only means completely dead when it supports our theory, but "sorta dead" when it doesn't. We can ignore figures of speech and the difference between literal and figurative when it suits us. We can continually use the "dead as Lazarus" tactic to support Total Inability while simultaneously allowing Lazarus to be not quite so dead when it comes to sin. Very convenient-- and fallacious.

PS: you might want to lay off the shouting through big, bold type all the time. Just a suggestion.

the problem is you ignore scripture and are content with simple , misleading deductions .

Man is dead in trespasses and sins , fact .

Man is also very much alive to sin and rebellion , fact .

If you cannot bring yourself to the bar of scripture , you will remain flogging a dead horse , pun intended .

 

[2thePoint]

the problem is you ignore scripture and are content with simple , misleading deductions .

Man is dead in trespasses and sins , fact .

Man is also very much alive to sin and rebellion , fact .

If you cannot bring yourself to the bar of scripture , you will remain flogging a dead horse , pun intended .

Again, not at all. I study scripture intently and have all my life. I also study logic so I don't misinterpret it, and history so I understand the context, as well as grammar and language so I don't take figures of speech as literal teachings and vice versa.

My deductions are logical and can be checked against any standard logic theory.

But as has been my experience, Calvinists resort to ad hominem when they are faced with the logical conclusions and internal contradictions of their system. In the face of such Total Inability (pun intended) to discuss the topic rationally and without rancor, I usually just leave the seeds where they lie and pray that the Holy Spirit will shed Irresistable Grace on hard Calvinist soil. Thanks for helping me to "save myself" from further wasted time.

 

[cygnusx1]

Again, not at all. I study scripture intently and have all my life. I also study logic so I don't misinterpret it, and history so I understand the context, as well as grammar and language so I don't take figures of speech as literal teachings and vice versa.

My deductions are logical and can be checked against any standard logic theory.

But as has been my experience, Calvinists resort to ad hominem when they are faced with the logical conclusions and internal contradictions of their system. In the face of such Total Inability (pun intended) to discuss the topic rationally and without rancor, I usually just leave the seeds where they lie and pray that the Holy Spirit will shed Irresistable Grace on hard Calvinist soil. Thanks for helping me to "save myself" from further wasted time.

your deductions may be logical they just are not Biblical , man can be dead to God and alive to sin at the same time .

Your deduction is at odds with the text I quoted because you have not thought it through enough.

 

[Pinkman]

Cyg

Please lay off the bold shouting. Just a request.

Please also lay of alleging 'deductions' as posted above. Another request -cos it waste so much time. Its boring.

Correct me where I am wrong.

Where does it PLAINLY say in the Bible that God creates reprobates, ministers to them even, or anything else. I think you made that up to get out of a tight spot.

I'll summarize my current position.
God did not create a predestined puppet show. Least I cannot find that in scripture.

No non calvinist maintains that any human get into heaven by his own merit. Thats just a Calvinist get out of trouble card. Also boring.

With God everything is possible. He is INfinite. We are not. Hence God is Sovereign but that does not mean he has to prearrange everything to be the boss. E.g the chess game analogy many posts back.

In fact as the Bible PLAINLY states, man is created in God's image. God states it is good. Man goes astray of his own free will. There are no predestined reprobates. Not according to the Bible.

In short the problem I have with Calvinism is that it limits God. I assert God is INfinite. "NO no no it must be ..." states the calvinist, with some man made dogma. Not saying the Arms are totally correct, but way ahead of the Calvies.

 

[Pinkman]

Cyg and others.

You often use phrases such as "you have not thought it thru enuf"

Get real

 

[2thePoint]

Cyg and others.

You often use phrases such as "you have not thought it thru enuf"

Get real

This is all too common, regardless of topic. If people disagree, it just might be because they DID think it through. It's arrogant to say that other people must have some defect if they disagree.

 

[JustAsIam77]

My brothers railing against Calvinism have not done their homework in the study of scripture, John Calvin understood scripture correctly IMHO.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[cygnusx1]

Cyg and others.

You often use phrases such as "you have not thought it thru enuf"

Get real

I did get real I quoted a text that flies in the face of simplistic deductions , was that text examined and taken on board ? of course not !

so Pinkman , get real yourself

 

[AndOne]

This is simple logic, not what I made up. If Calvinism teaches the literal deadness of the spirit rendering it incapable of doing anything, then "anything" means "anything" and there are no exceptions, even to do evil. Simple logic.

You don't understand. What spiritual deadness means is that man by nature is evil and incapable of good until God changes his/her heart. Romans 3 - check it out.

I'm more interested in what scripture teaches than what logic dicticates. Though a clear study of the scriptures will show they are logical.

 

[2thePoint]

You don't understand. What spiritual deadness means is that man by nature is evil and incapable of good until God changes his/her heart. Romans 3 - check it out.

I'm more interested in what scripture teaches than what logic dicticates. Though a clear study of the scriptures will show they are logical.

It is Calvinists themselves who say "as dead as Lazarus" when they explain their ordo salutis. They say the spirits of the lost are literally, completely dead, unable to respond to the gospel for the same reason the physically dead are unable to respond to anything at all. This is what Calvinists say, as can be seen in any number of threads in this board alone. They are the ones who need to be corrected, if you disagree with this.

What I'm trying to convey is that IF this is what Calvinists believe, THEN it follows that the lost are equally unable to do evil, because their spirits are literally, completely dead, unable to respond to anything just as the physically dead. This is very clear and simple, and Calvinism's problem to face.

But if this is not what you personally believe, then you must concede that the lost are in fact capable of responding to the gospel, because even scripture says that the lost "by nature" can do the "things of the law" (see Rom. 2:14). It is for Calvinism to resolve the discrepancy they themselves create by saying the lost are literally/spiritually dead "like Lazarus".

 

[AndOne]

It is Calvinists themselves who say "as dead as Lazarus" when they explain their ordo salutis. They say the spirits of the lost are literally, completely dead, unable to respond to the gospel for the same reason the physically dead are unable to respond to anything at all. This is what Calvinists say, as can be seen in any number of threads in this board alone. They are the ones who need to be corrected, if you disagree with this.

What I'm trying to convey is that IF this is what Calvinists believe, THEN it follows that the lost are equally unable to do evil, because their spirits are literally, completely dead, unable to respond to anything just as the physically dead. This is very clear and simple, and Calvinism's problem to face.

But if this is not what you personally believe, then you must concede that the lost are in fact capable of responding to the gospel, because even scripture says that the lost "by nature" can do the "things of the law" (see Rom. 2:14). It is for Calvinism to resolve the discrepancy they themselves create by saying the lost are literally/spiritually dead "like Lazarus".

Its actually a strawman argument in the strictest since of the term. You are basically trying to define for Calvinists what they believe. I've already explained to you what the Calvinist definition of spiritual death is. You are trying to interject your own meaning onto it - but its not the Calvinist belief...