Uncomfortable Practices in my Parish

[Groovy]

You must being going to the same parish as groovy- LOL.

What's going on is ridiculous. Talk to the bishop- not to the priest.

There is no way on this earth I would allow that with out some sort of fight. Talk to who ever is in charge over this about that. That is sacrilege IMO. Why don't they just hang him upside down while they are at it? It's blasphemy is what it is.

HEY! WO! Michelle, you are way out of line here. I never said my parish does anything like this. My parish would NEVER turn the cross around, or those strange clowns, I am opposed this this!

However, we do let some protestants join in the ministry team as long as they are NOT anti-Catholic or give anti-Catholic teachings.

DO NOT put me in a weird box PLEASE!

And yes I do agree with you Michelle, they should talk to the Bishop, I know my Bishop would never allow this weird stuff, he does allow the things that go on at our Church BTW.

√Groovy

 

[Groovy]

Would it have been appropriate for someone to break out a guitar and start singing some "uplifting contemporary" song 2000 years ago, as Christ was being crucified? Right at the foot of the cross?

Must Mass always be this time of sadness and gloom? Can we never live in Christ's Joy at Mass?

"Celebrate Christ's Death AND Resurrection"

√Groovy

 

[Groovy]

Ok, I feel a bit better after the meeting yesterday with the priest. It turns out that the singer is taking RCIA and it may be more than just an attempt to be able to understand Catholicism better. (He is also NOT teaching anything to the Catholic kids...it is not a CCD so to speak, more like a fellowship ministry). He asked the priest to teach him the Rosary and I've seen him sitting in the back of Mass for months now. Apparently a lot of his friends are converting to Catholicism and telling him about the "one true Church" so he is interested.

I'm going to give him a lot of my books by Scott Hahn during these classes!

I'm still annoyed by the guitar playing during Communion, but I think a conversion may be worth it for now.

Ah! thats good news! We Catholics tend to overlook somthing like this going on. A lot of Protestant do actually have some good thing to offer us.(although this is hard to accept for a lot of Catholics, because of selfishness)
We can't go slamming the church for the outreach that it is doing.
However did you hear anything about the cross?

Blessings,
Your Brother in Christ.
√Groovy

 

[Irenaeus]

Groovy, you're missing the point.

Mass is very joyful, but you seem to associate (incorrectly) reverence=sorrow.

We're just saying, if you were before the Cross of Christ crucified, I would not be dancing disco (just kidding)...I would be reverent.

As the Saints say, the posture of the body can determine the state of the soul. One may quietly shed tears of joy and love of our Lord, while not hopping around, clapping their hands.

Reverence is not sorrow. It is truth, it is humility. It is knowing who he are as humans and giving Christ true worship. This is holy sobriety.

 

[artnalex]

Every day more of us are born and more of them die.

This made my day.

I don't know why, but I couldn't stop laughing after reading this.

 

[artnalex]

..

 

[PeterPaul]

Hey Groovy, I'm a selfish Catholic then. Because I see NOTHING that Protestants can contribute to the Mass, other than their attendance and conversion.

 

[artnalex]

I see someone already covered what i had posted here. hence, i deleted it. Sorry.

 

[Groovy]

Groovy, you're missing the point.

Mass is very joyful, but you seem to associate (incorrectly) reverence=sorrow.

We're just saying, if you were before the Cross of Christ crucified, I would not be dancing disco (just kidding)...I would be reverent.

As the Saints say, the posture of the body can determine the state of the soul. One may quietly shed tears of joy and love of our Lord, while not hopping around, clapping their hands.

Reverence is not sorrow. It is truth, it is humility. It is knowing who he are as humans and giving Christ true worship. This is holy sobriety.

Irenaeus you are right, I am quite aware of that.

But there is not just one way to worship our dear Father. There are times when I just sit and listen to the lord., There are times when I am jumping for joy for the lord, There are times I cry before the lord. There are times I laugh in the Spirit, There are times when I just kneel and silently adore the lord, there are times when I "Make a joyful noise" unto the lord (note: also includes clapping my hands). There is no form of worship that is greater than the other. God want's us to worship him in any way we can, from kneeling to jumping, if we give it all to God, than it is Worship. I have done and do every week every one of these.

There is also no reason to box God in to just one form of worship. We can look all around the bible for that. (BTW there is also waving a banner to the lord, I have not seen this done in a Catholic church yet.... maybe some Charismatic Masses)

BTW PP do you not know that selfishness is a sin? ever wonder what causes anti-Catholics? Think about what you just wrote.

Blessings to all.
√Groovy

 

[PeterPaul]

BTW PP do you not know that selfishness is a sin? ever wonder what causes anti-Catholics? Think about what you just wrote.

Blessings to all.
√Groovy
[/color]

Actually, I am selfish by your standards Groovy. What causes anti-Catholics has more to do with rebellion, lack of knowledge is another reason. Making us Protestant is not the answer.

 

[Paul S]

There is no form of worship that is greater than the other. God want's us to worship him in any way we can, from kneeling to jumping, if we give it all to God, than it is Worship. I have done and do every week every one of these.

But there is - the greatest act of worship is the Sacrifice of the Mass, our Lord's sacrifice on the cross made present. When the priest consecrates the bread and wine, we are before the cross, and like Irenaeus said, that's not the place for disco.

There's nothing wrong with praising the Lord through song and dance, but I don't think Mass is the place for it.

 

[Groovy]

But there is - the greatest act of worship is the Sacrifice of the Mass, our Lord's sacrifice on the cross made present. When the priest consecrates the bread and wine, we are before the cross, and like Irenaeus said, that's not the place for disco.

Do you have a Vatican statement that I can read that says this?

I am not saying that during consecration and communion that we should be disco-ing. That is why you have exuberant praise (outer-court worship) at the beginning and the end of Mass, and then more reflective quiet worship at consecration. (inner-court worship)

This is one of the reasons that I love Charismatic Masses, it is that there are more forms of worship than in a traditional Mass. (And yes there is quiet worship during consecration)

But as in Charismatic Masses, and even some more Contemporary Masses, there is good up-beat worship during the other parts of the Mass. We are Catholics, and therefore we should practice the fulness of faith, including ALL forms of worship.

Sometimes we put too much focus on being quiet before the lord. God is loud, look at all the noises of nature, God created them to be noisy!

√Groovy

 

[Roald]

But there is - the greatest act of worship is the Sacrifice of the Mass, our Lord's sacrifice on the cross made present. When the priest consecrates the bread and wine, we are before the cross, and like Irenaeus said, that's not the place for disco.

St. Irenaeus referenced disco?

 

[Paul S]

The OBOB poster (see above), not the saint.

 

[Paul S]

Do you have a Vatican statement that I can read that says this?

I don't know if this is an official statement, but Pope St. Pius X wrote "The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar."

I don't see how my prayer or my singing, no matter how thankful, comes anywhere close to Christ's act of sacrifice.

I am not saying that during consecration and communion that we should be disco-ing. That is why you have exuberant praise (outer-court worship) at the beginning and the end of Mass, and then more reflective quiet worship at consecration. (inner-court worship)

This is one of the reasons that I love Charismatic Masses, it is that there are more forms of worship than in a traditional Mass. (And yes there is quiet worship during consecration)

Not as quiet as during a traditional Mass, where there's complete silence during the entire Canon except for the bells rung at the moment of elevation.

But many people, like yourself, prefer a less quiet form of worship. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as it doesn't take away from what the Mass is really about. I think the sacrifice of the Mass is too often forgotten today, and there's a tendency to view it as more of a meal. Too many Catholics today don't believe in the Real Presence, and I think de-emphasising the sacrifice is part and focusing more on other things is part of why this happened.

This isn't to say people attending Charismatic Masses fail to realise what's going on - I'm sure many of them are there to worship Jesus in the Eucharist. If Charismatic Masses help bring some people closer to Jesus, then let's have them. Let's just not forget why we're there.

 

[Groovy]

I do want to say first off, you brought up some excellent points Paul. And I agree with a lot of what you said.

I don't know if this is an official statement, but Pope St. Pius X wrote "The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice, dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar."

Prayer and Worship are quite different, infact this is the point to "Mary Worship" we don't worship Mary, we pray to Mary. We worship God. But, once again there is no one higher form of worship than the other.

I don't see how my prayer or my singing, no matter how thankful, comes anywhere close to Christ's act of sacrifice.

There is no act that we can do that compares to Christ's sacrifice.
But we what can we give God?
Praise and Worship. That is all the Father want's from us, is to hear us thank him, and praise him, and worship him.

Not as quiet as during a traditional Mass, where there's complete silence during the entire Canon except for the bells rung at the moment of elevation.

You don't have to be silent all the time, infact quiet music is very moving, and inhances the worship.
Although no music is better than bad music.

But many people, like yourself, prefer a less quiet form of worship. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as it doesn't take away from what the Mass is really about. I think the sacrifice of the Mass is too often forgotten today, and there's a tendency to view it as more of a meal. Too many Catholics today don't believe in the Real Presence, and I think de-emphasising the sacrifice is part and focusing more on other things is part of why this happened.

Again, worship comes in many forms, there is "quiet" worship, and there is "not-so-quiet" worship.
Good music is not meant nor does it detract from the Sacrifice of Mass.
Bad music does destract from the Scrifice of Mass.
70% of Catholics don't believe in the real presence.
90% of Catholic music in general is just flat bad.
We need to get rid of OCP IMO. I would rather have no music than listen to bad music played bad.

As I said before, there is time for up-beat praise and worship music (outer-court worship) beginning and end of Mass.
And a time for more focused deep worship songs during the consecration (inner-court worship)

However I feel like the mass should start out with at least 30 minutes of (good) praise and worship music to bring people into a state of worship before mass starts. one song just does not do it for most Catholics.

Anyways, good points Paul.
Blessings.
√Groovy

 

[Paul S]

Prayer and Worship are quite different, infact this is the point to "Mary Worship" we don't worship Mary, we pray to Mary. We worship God. But, once again there is no one higher form of worship than the other.

Prayer and worship can be different - we pray to Mary; we don't worship her. But prayer to God Himself is worship. The liturgy, both the Mass and Divine Office, are both.

You don't have to be silent all the time, infact quiet music is very moving, and inhances the worship. Although no music is better than bad music.

90% of Catholic music in general is just flat bad. We need to get rid of OCP IMO.

I certainly agree here, and I'm lucky to have a wonderful choir at my church. Plus, parts of the Mass are sung by the priest and parts by the choir.

What's OCP?

I don't know about 90%, but I probably would say 90% of the stuff published in the last 40 years. Bring back Dies Irae.

However I feel like the mass should start out with at least 30 minutes of (good) praise and worship music to bring people into a state of worship before mass starts. one song just does not do it for most Catholics.

I'd prefer some nice quiet time to pray and reflect on what's about to happen at Mass. But I do think there's room for both styles of worship in the Church.

 

[AMDG]

D of F, I'm with you and I could just cry. That said, the Novos Ordo CAN BE beautiful (when done right.) Still, you ARE allowed a Tridentine Mass and they are majestic and awesome (no drums, guitars, clowns, clapping, etc.) And you CAN go to an Eastern Catholic Rite. (The change in the cultural aspect is a bit difficult to get used to, but the REVERENCE is awesome.) Of course sometimes you just HAVE to "grin and bear" it. May I advise praying real hard over the instance, and then speaking to the priest if the abuse is really bad (the Pope came out with a document REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM wich deals with matters to be observed or be avoided regardiing the Eucharist. Keep praying and "offer it up" and remember that Christ is present in Communion, so don't let them keep you from Him.

BTW, the Vacation Bible Study at my Base is Protestant and Catholic. Never compromise the truth and yet learn from the intense Bible based teaching. We do have things in common--concentrate on them. And I know one Catholic CCD teacher/VBS teacher who took the opportunity to teach the other Protestant VBS teachers how to say a rosary, and would immediately "go toe-to-toe" with anyone, including a Prostestant Chaplain if something was being taught that was contrary to Catholic teaching. As the Bible says, "be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Oh, and would you pray for me too. When I see the abuses, it hurts.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Ok, so I can try and overlook the guitars and drum playing at Mass. I can try to overlook the female altar servers.

But yesterday...during the reception of the Eucharist, a Protestant guest to Mass starts playing (a really cool song, he is very talented and should make a CD) his guitar and singing.

My wife and I just look at each other in shock. His peformance (which was great and would be wonderful at any other event) completely overshadowed the Eucharist.

Hello!? This is MASS. This isn't a Protestant service where people can play all sorts of music, sing, clap, dance, roll around on the floor and do whatever else they want to do. This is the moment of sacrifice at the Cross! Would you be singing and dancing at the Cross!?!?

After the performance, the priest starts talking about how the singer is the director of our youth services. "We have a unique situation here...we have a joint Protestant-Catholic CCD"

Um....I'm sorry, Catholicism and Protestantism are NOT compatible! We agree on the Trinity...ok, are they going to teach the Catholic kids about the Trinity the entire time? Or are they going to teach them about how the Eucharist is symbolic and you really don't have to confess your sins, because you are saved already!?

We are NOT going back to our Church. I'm supposed to teach RCIA again this year, and I'm meeting with the priest on Wed, so I am thinking of doing this rant in person. Its great to hold hands and be nice to the Protestants, and I appreciate what the Protestant singer was trying to do, but if he knew how we felt I'm sure he wouldn't have been there. He of course got the obligatory clapping by most of the church, but when the priest started talking about the joint-CCD, my wife left...and I soon followed!

This kind of thing makes me want to run to a traditional Mass and never look back! I'd rather go to an Eastern Orthodox service over this new age insanity! It also makes the Traditionalist Catholic's points seem a lot more valid! I used to think they were nuts for complaining about the "New Mass" that was devised with the "help" of Protestants. Now I'm not so sure!



Oh, and we share our base chapel with the Protestants, which is fine, but they make us turn our Crucifix around, so only the Cross is showing. I wonder if they will allow any Marian statues in this "joint-CCD" class!?

It is best to go to the person(s) who make you mad and speak directly(Mt. 18:15)
do as st. Paul:" I believe, and so I spoke".

if you just hold it in...it will eat at your bone marrow.

God Bless you
Carlos

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Groovy-

The cross is turned around during the Protestant services, not during our Mass. We share the chapel with them, so I guess we have to let them do that.