Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

IWalkAlone

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Peter was speaking of how he was in the last days in Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18.

For Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it clear that the author of Hebrews expresses how he believed how God the Father spoke to us by His Son in the last days he was currently living in.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,” (Hebrews 1:1-2).

By Acts of the Apostles 2:20, we definitely see a fast forward to a future time that has not happened yet. But this is not uncommon in prophecy for some things in a piece of Scripture to be fulfilled in one point of time while the next portion is fulfilled at a later time. So in Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18, Peter is referring to the last days from his perspective and these last days would continue on with the future end times beyond our day with the sun turning into darkness. So there is no contradiction when it comes to Cessationism (When we read Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18). The Spirit will be poured upon all flesh in the fact that both Jews and Gentiles (Cornelius) had been baptized into the Holy Spirit.
He called apostles and prophets until we are no more children tossed about by every wind of doctrine. The apostles established doctrine so we wouldn't be tossed around. Paul says when I was a child I reasoned as a child but when I became a man I put away childish things. What did he mean?
 
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In my first reply to you, Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It, I stated



Do you agree with my point above? If not, then no, I cannot be preaching to the converted.
How do you know that instant healing of the sick and casting out of demons is not valid as an integral part of the preaching of the Gospel? If that is the view of the Holy Spirit then He should have clearly stated it in the New Testament. I see no New Testament Scripture that contradicts my view that the instant healing and casting out of demons associated with the preaching of the Gospel is valid right to the end of the Church Age and only ceases when the Church Age is completed and we go on to the day of Judgment.
 
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He called apostles and prophets until we are no more children tossed about by every wind of doctrine. The apostles established doctrine so we wouldn't be tossed around. Paul says when I was a child I reasoned as a child but when I became a man I put away childish things. What did he mean?
He means that we don't become complete until we meet up with the Lord face to face after the Church Age is over. The fact is that our modern churches are filled with spiritual children tossed about by every wind of doctrine, so by your own reasoning, apostles and prophets are still needed in our modern churches.
 
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Fervent

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You cannot conclude that because James did not state that. You can form an opinion no problem, but you cannot claim that the prayer is clearly implying that God will heal them.
First, things implied are not stated. They are indicated, and James indicates that healing will happen by appealing to the greater miracle in that God will raise them from the dead. So linking an expectation of healing in the elders prayers of faith with expectations that the prayers will actually accomplish what they are praying for is simply the most natural conclusion. Or do you think James was seeking to create some sort of ethereal Rube Goldberg device?
 
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First, things implied are not stated. They are indicated, and James indicates that healing will happen by appealing to the greater miracle in that God will raise them from the dead. So linking an expectation of healing in the elders prayers of faith with expectations that the prayers will actually accomplish what they are praying for is simply the most natural conclusion. Or do you think James was seeking to create some sort of ethereal Rube Goldberg device?
I guess that James spoke about the sick person calling for the elders of the church at a time when the elders' prayers actually got the sick person healed. But in these days, such is not the case. In most churches I wouldn't trust the elder's prayers because they are hardly ever answered, and when the elders themselves pray, they are not really expecting an instant answer to their prayers anyway.
 
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IWalkAlone

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He means that we don't become complete until we meet up with the Lord face to face after the Church Age is over. The fact is that our modern churches are filled with spiritual children tossed about by every wind of doctrine, so by your own reasoning, apostles and prophets are still needed in our modern churches.
No. The apostles gave us doctrine to counter the winds of false doctrine. That has been done already. I'm not tossed around because I have scripture. I'm not fooled by the false doctrine out there. If I can grow up so can the church, and some members do.
 
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Fervent

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I guess that James spoke about the sick person calling for the elders of the church at a time when the elders' prayers actually got the sick person healed. But in these days, such is not the case. In most churches I wouldn't trust the elder's prayers because they are hardly ever answered, and when the elders themselves pray, they are not really expecting an instant answer to their prayers anyway.
James wasn't promising instant healing, in fact that would go against the thrust of the chapter in enduring suffering nobly. James promises all who are prayed for will be healed, but his mention of the raising of the dead gives it an end times fulfillment as well as an immediate one. All will be healed, but some healing is delayed because the purpose of the gospel is greater than the temporary relief that healing would bring. When He doesn't answer our prayers of healing it is because there are graver sicknesses we are subject to that the symptoms are treatment for, just as chemo makes cancer patients sick.
 
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No. The apostles gave us doctrine to counter the winds of false doctrine. That has been done already. I'm not tossed around because I have scripture. I'm not fooled by the false doctrine out there. If I can grow up so can the church, and some members do.
What?? The modern church is totally corrupted with false doctrine. We have church pastors teaching that God is not a real person, that there is no historical Jesus but our Christ is a "Christ of faith", that there was no virgin birth, and no resurrection, and that the Bible contains mainly myth that shouldn't be taken literally. We also have the prosperity word-faith movement that has totally corrupted the Charismatic movement with "we are gods", false predictive prophecies, such as Benny Hinn prophesying in the 1970s that the gay community in San Francisco would be burned up by fire by 1974, that Donald Trump would win the U.S. election in 2021. Our churches still have the trappings of formalism and ceremony that were part of the apostate church from the 5th Century until the Reformation, and churches still have ornate architectural buildings originating from the Roman pagan temples. The Lord's Supper is still a ritualised "Lord's Snack" observed as a ceremony once a month, instead of every time Christians meet together. We have the Holy Spirit supposedly conferred by a bishop during the Anglican ritual of confirmation, and high Anglicans have statues of Mary and Jesus in their churches which is idolatry. Much of church preaching is how to save your marriage, how to live a moral life, the seven steps of self esteem, etc. Most church set programmes don't allow ordinary members to actively participate in worship services, and even if people have a song, a hymn, a tongue, an interpretation, a revelation, as the Scripture says should be going on in Christian meetings, they are given no opportunity to share, because the ministry of the church is a "one man band" arrangement with the pastor providing the only ministry, instead of several elders performing the five-fold ministries in the church as prescribed by Scripture.

So, you are saying that the church has grown up? Not likely!!!!
 
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chad kincham

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Seeing face to face means the completed revelation of God. We know God today not by miracles but by the word.



Paul is saying he now knows in part,
Is referring to his knowledge coming from miraculous knowledge. When the perfect comes the knowledge Paul was given will end.

Christians today are complete because we have all the knowledge that is needed to life and Godliness.

1Peter 1:3
As His divine power has been given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.

1st. Century christians did not have Gods completed revelation.

As you know, Paul has complete miraculous knowledge. But still his knowledge is in part because of the way he received his knowledge.
Bibles have no faces - but Jesus does.
 
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IWalkAlone

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What?? The modern church is totally corrupted with false doctrine. We have church pastors teaching that God is not a real person, that there is no historical Jesus but our Christ is a "Christ of faith", that there was no virgin birth, and no resurrection, and that the Bible contains mainly myth that shouldn't be taken literally. We also have the prosperity word-faith movement that has totally corrupted the Charismatic movement with "we are gods", false predictive prophecies, such as Benny Hinn prophesying in the 1970s that the gay community in San Francisco would be burned up by fire by 1974, that Donald Trump would win the U.S. election in 2021. Our churches still have the trappings of formalism and ceremony that were part of the apostate church from the 5th Century until the Reformation, and churches still have ornate architectural buildings originating from the Roman pagan temples. The Lord's Supper is still a ritualised "Lord's Snack" observed as a ceremony once a month, instead of every time Christians meet together. We have the Holy Spirit supposedly conferred by a bishop during the Anglican ritual of confirmation, and high Anglicans have statues of Mary and Jesus in their churches which is idolatry. Much of church preaching is how to save your marriage, how to live a moral life, the seven steps of self esteem, etc. Most church set programmes don't allow ordinary members to actively participate in worship services, and even if people have a song, a hymn, a tongue, an interpretation, a revelation, as the Scripture says should be going on in Christian meetings, they are given no opportunity to share, because the ministry of the church is a "one man band" arrangement with the pastor providing the only ministry, instead of several elders performing the five-fold ministries in the church as prescribed by Scripture.

So, you are saying that the church has grown up? Not likely!!!!
I have the Bible and my doctrine isn't corrupted. I have grown up and others have too. So in that sense yes the Church grew up. Some people want to remain infants.
 
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This is an example of using the Scripture to fit in with a predetermined premise, by quoting verses out of their natural context to prove the point.

James comment about looking at oneself in a mirror then walking away forgetting what one sees of himself , is quite different to Paul's comment about looking in an imperfect mirror in terms of having incomplete knowledge about the things of God. Paul's context is that we have partial knowledge and we give partial prophecies, but when we are face to face with the Lord our knowledge will be complete.

It is the same confusion that exists between interpretation of Paul and James concerning faith and works. Paul and James are speaking entirely different things about them. Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. James says that the person who says they have faith would demonstrate it by what he does or doesn't do. Paul talks about salvation coming apart from works, James talks about works happening as the result of saving faith. When looked at together, Paul and James are both correct. Salvation is achieved by faith in Christ finished work on the Cross and no works by us can contribute to it. But once a person is saved, there are preordained works through the work of the Holy Spirit in us that are produced in us - ie: the fruit of the Spirit. So James is not saying that we are saved through a combination of faith and works, and Paul is not saying that a person who is saved by faith in Christ won't demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit instead of the works of the flesh.

And to make a jump between 1 Corinthians 13 which speaks about the attributes of love, to 1 Corinthians 14 which teaches about the right use of tongues is unreliable. Nowhere does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 14 that people who speak in tongues babble like babies. That is adding to Paul's teaching that isn't there. In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is not talking about the gifts of the Spirit at all. He is speaking about the enduring of love all the way into eternity, and that what we are doing during the church age is compared to doing childish things in comparison to what we will be doing when we get into eternity with the Lord.

If Paul is referring to babies in 1 Corinthians, he is commenting on the divisiveness of those who have their preferred teachers and their disrespect for the Lord's Supper, as well as allowing a person with serious sexual sin to remain in the fellowship. None of what he says about baby Christians has anything to do with the gifts of the Spirit. In fact, he says that they are right up there in God with the Gifts, and speaking in tongues is giving thanks to God well. So, giving thanks to God well (appropriately) is not a set of babies babbling away in pointless gibbering, but speaking in expressive, articulate languages that God understands and accepts as people speaking of His wonderful works.

Your comment about "growing into a man when the NT canon is complete" is nonsense given the events of church history. Once the canon was complete, the church went into ritual, formalism and apostacy for the next thousand years until the Reformation. So the advent of the NT canon did not produce "manly", mature Christian believers. It produced continued spiritual "children" blinding accepting the inventions of a church hierarchy that was depending on imaginary tradition rather than the truth of Scripture. Even now in our modern churches we don't have mature Christian believers, superior in spiritual development to those way back in the 1st Century.

If you are for the continuation of the gifts, then why can’t you raise the dead and cleanse lepers as Jesus’ commands? It’s because these gifts were for the apostles. So what I stated involving James 1 and 1 Corinthians 13 stands and makes perfect sense in light of we read in the Bible and what we observe in the real world around us.

As for Paul vs. James: Yes, I was able to resolve their words a long time ago from now. But I do not exactly agree with your interpretation exactly. I believe Paul was talking about the Initial and Foundational Aspect of our Salvation. Paul was describing an aspect of salvation that it entirely based on God’s grace without works because we are first saved by God’s grace, and we are ultimately saved by God’s grace. For if we sin, we do not do a good work, but we go to God’s grace by confessing our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1) in order to maintain mercy or forgiveness. James is referring to the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. To suggest otherwise is simply to turn God’s grace into a license for immorality if holy living by the Spirit is simply optional. God is not going to force a believer to be a certain way. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). A part of being saved by God’s grace is the gospel. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It is believing that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation. But Paul also says there is a call of the gospel (not that it is the gospel). This call of the gospel is… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body but the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).

As for 1 Corinthians 14 and the Corinthians babbling like babies: Paul is correcting the Corinthians on the misuse of tongues in that they did not have an interpreter. So they sounded like barbarians (Paul says that God is not the author of confusion and refers to barbarians (i.e. most likely tribes people who had a hard to understand barbaric language). When a baby makes sounds, we do not understand them. It sounds like babble to us. Paul says he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding. So this means Paul prefers that tongues be interpreted so there is understanding. The point here is that Paul refers to the growing of a child into a man in 1 Corinthians 13 as a warm up to his point not to act like children in speaking in tongues without an interpreter whereby they would be just babbling and sounding like authors of confusion (what sounds like what babies sometimes do). Yes, Paul does not mention babies, but I can make the analogy because the same concept of truth is still there by way of comparison. You know… kind of like if we made a parable or real world example like the Canaanite woman did with Jesus when she said that even the dogs eat from the crumbs of the master’s table.

As for your claim that when I speak of church infancy vs. the church maturing: Well, you made the same wrong assumption that another poster made. Nowhere am I claiming that the church was more spiritual right away as a result of having a complete NT canon (with the close of Revelation). When I refer to church infancy vs. the church growing or maturing it is in reference to the way God communicated to them throughout time. I am sure you have heard of the milk of the Word vs. the meat of the Word before. So that is sort of a similar concept of what is going on here. The church was in an infancy stage when they had the sign gifts by receiving limited knowledge and prophecy until the completion of the canon of Scripture. When the canon of Scripture was complete, the church would then have a complete and fully matured message given to them that they were able to then digest. For it took a long time for some of the Messianic Jews (i.e. Jewish Christians) to come out from under the 613 Laws of Moses. So the completion of the canon of Scripture would help with their understanding on that. They would have a more mature understanding by the complete canon of Scripture. But that has nothing to do with their free will choice to follow the Lord or not.

Anyways, may God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on this topic in Scripture).

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

BL. Highlighter.
 
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Guojing

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James indicates that healing will happen by appealing to the greater miracle in that God will raise them from the dead.

When Jews say "The Lord will raise him up", it does not mean they are implying "The Lord will heal him".

Think of what Martha said to Jesus, she used a similar phrase in John 11

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Israel believed that, when Jesus comes, the dead in the grave will rise, for example Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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He called apostles and prophets until we are no more children tossed about by every wind of doctrine. The apostles established doctrine so we wouldn't be tossed around. Paul says when I was a child I reasoned as a child but when I became a man I put away childish things. What did he mean?

Sounds like we are in agreement.
 
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I have the Bible and my doctrine isn't corrupted. I have grown up and others have too. So in that sense yes the Church grew up. Some people want to remain infants.
Now let me get this straight.
1. Are you a member of a church or a Christian group (not forsaking the fellowshiping together as the manner of some is).
2. Who runs the service? Is it according to 1 Corinthians 12 or is it run by just one person?
3. Is it in a home or a purposely built church building?
4. It is a pre-programme order of service?
5. Is your communion a proper supper, or "the Lord's Snack?"
6. Is your church elder-run or is managed by an ordained minister?

Now compare the practice of your church with what the New Testament describes what a church should be, and then decide how much your church has grown up to be what it should be in Christ.
 
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I don't know all mysteries but Im Not being tossed about by winds of doctrine. In that sense I'm grown
I'm not going down the track of commenting on you and others on a personal level. That would be disrespectful of me.
 
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Fervent

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When Jews say "The Lord will raise him up", it does not mean they are implying "The Lord will heal him".

Think of what Martha said to Jesus, she used a similar phrase in John 11

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Israel believed that, when Jesus comes, the dead in the grave will rise, for example Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
1 word: context

James is speaking of prayers for healing. He intensifies the request from simply healing from disease to healing from death itself.

In law if someone is charged with 1st degree murder they can be convicted of 3rd degree manslaughter without new charges being brought, under the same principle.
 
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If you are for the continuation of the gifts, then why can’t you raise the dead and cleanse lepers as Jesus’ commands? It’s because these gifts were for the apostles. So what I stated involving James 1 and 1 Corinthians 13 stands and makes perfect sense in light of we read in the Bible and what we observe in the real world around us.
Correct. I am not an Apostle of Christ therefore I don't preach the Gospel as an Apostle, therefore I don't manifest those gifts.

As for Paul vs. James: Yes, I was able to resolve their words a long time ago from now. But I do not exactly agree with your interpretation exactly. I believe Paul was talking about the Initial and Foundational Aspect of our Salvation. Paul was describing an aspect of salvation that it entirely based on God’s grace without works because we are first saved by God’s grace, and we are ultimately saved by God’s grace. For if we sin, we do not do a good work, but we go to God’s grace by confessing our sins to Jesus (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1) in order to maintain mercy or forgiveness. James is referring to the Sanctification Process as a part of God’s plan of salvation AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. To suggest otherwise is simply to turn God’s grace into a license for immorality if holy living by the Spirit is simply optional. God is not going to force a believer to be a certain way. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). A part of being saved by God’s grace is the gospel. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It is believing that Jesus died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation. But Paul also says there is a call of the gospel (not that it is the gospel). This call of the gospel is… God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body but the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).]/quote]
Absolutely. I totally agree.

]quote]As for 1 Corinthians 14 and the Corinthians babbling like babies: Paul is correcting the Corinthians on the misuse of tongues in that they did not have an interpreter. So they sounded like barbarians (Paul says that God is not the author of confusion and refers to barbarians (i.e. most likely tribes people who had a hard to understand barbaric language). When a baby makes sounds, we do not understand them. It sounds like babble to us. Paul says he would rather speak five words with the understanding than 10,000 words without the understanding. So this means Paul prefers that tongues be interpreted so there is understanding.
I go along with this, that someone speaking in a foreign language which no one understands the person is a foreigner to us. Paul's view of "barbarians" were those who were not Roman who spoke Latin. The Barbarians spoke their own articulate expressive languages, and not gibberish in itself, in the same way that Hindu and Chinese speak in language quite foreign to us. But I disagree that the foreign languages are baby languages. The languages are mature, well developed region languages which may sound like gibberish to us because we don't understand them.
The point here is that Paul refers to the growing of a child into a man in 1 Corinthians 13 as a warm up to his point
Not so. Paul's theme in 1Corinthians 13 is a totally different topic, and at the start of 1 Corinthians 14, he links love with the desire for spiritual gifts, preferably prophecy. There is no direct link to tongues at this stage.

not to act like children in speaking in tongues without an interpreter whereby they would be just babbling and sounding like authors of confusion (what sounds like what babies sometimes do). Yes, Paul does not mention babies, but I can make the analogy because the same concept of truth is still there by way of comparison.
No you can't without adding words that Paul never said, or contradicting what he said in the chapter about tongues being speaking to God, mysteries in the Spirit, and giving thanks well. But I do agree that general speaking in tongues without interpretation does cause confusion, as we can see in video clips of ultra-charismatics doing the same thing.
You know… kind of like if we made a parable or real world example like the Canaanite woman did with Jesus when she said that even the dogs eat from the crumbs of the master’s table.
The Canaanite woman and Jesus had nothing to do with tongues. It was about persistence in making requests known to God.

As for your claim that when I speak of church infancy vs. the church maturing: Well, you made the same wrong assumption that another poster made. Nowhere am I claiming that the church was more spiritual right away as a result of having a complete NT canon (with the close of Revelation). When I refer to church infancy vs. the church growing or maturing it is in reference to the way God communicated to them throughout time. I am sure you have heard of the milk of the Word vs. the meat of the Word before. So that is sort of a similar concept of what is going on here.
I can live with that.

The church was in an infancy stage when they had the sign gifts by receiving limited knowledge and prophecy until the completion of the canon of Scripture. When the canon of Scripture was complete, the church would then have a complete and fully matured message given to them that they were able to then digest.
Paul said nothing about the completion of a canon of Scripture when he taught about spiritual gifts. This is adding a 19th Century theory into the chapter. None of the church fathers mentioned the cessation of the gifts upon the completion of the canon of Scripture, and even as late as the 16th Century, Calvin did not have that view of why the gifts ceased. In fact he says that 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to the believer's death or the day of judgment for the cessation of the gifts.
For it took a long time for some of the Messianic Jews (i.e. Jewish Christians) to come out from under the 613 Laws of Moses. So the completion of the canon of Scripture would help with their understanding on that. They would have a more mature understanding by the complete canon of Scripture. But that has nothing to do with their free will choice to follow the Lord or not.
This is extra-New Testament theory which may or may not be valid.

Anyways, may God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on this topic in Scripture).

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

BL. Highlighter.
I am enjoying our discussion and we don't have to agree to have great fellowship. I'm sure that some time when we meet in eternity we'll have a good laugh about it when both us may be proved wrong, or right, as we complete our knowledge of the things of God.
 
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1 word: context

James is speaking of prayers for healing. He intensifies the request from simply healing from disease to healing from death itself.
Where does James say that the elders raise people from the dead? I don't understand where you get that from.

In law if someone is charged with 1st degree murder they can be convicted of 3rd degree manslaughter without new charges being brought, under the same principle.
How does that relate to what James says about a sick person calling for the elders of the church and the prayer of faith will cause the Lord to raise the person up (from his sick bed). It is a bit of a stretch to say that the person is raised up from the dead!
 
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