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Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Oscarr, Nov 26, 2021.

  1. IWalkAlone

    IWalkAlone Well-Known Member

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    I was agreeing with the scrilture. It supported my point. I'm not sure what your point is.
     
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    My point to Oscar was the right perspective, us Christians in the Body of Christ should take, when we are physically sick on this Earth.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.” (James 1:22-25).

    The King James uses the word “glass” instead of the word “mirror.” So when we look through a glass darkly in 1 Corinthians 13, it is in reference to a mirror. When we look at a mirror that is in a dark room, we see a reflection of ourselves. We are face to face with ourselves.

    To quote a Christian article:

    “According to James, there are two options: forgetful hearer or effectual doer; delusional or blessed. The Bible is not merely theoretical or even theological, it is also immensely practical. God’s living and active Word is meant to change us at the level of our beliefs, worship, thoughts, speech and behavior. If we content ourselves with merely hearing God’s Word, we are as foolish as the person who sees her dirty face in a mirror and then does nothing except turn away. We need to hear God’s Word, listen to it, read it, study it, hear it preached and memorize it. In doing so, God’s Word is like a mirror, reflecting back to us the areas of our lives we are pleasing the Lord, and also specifics in which we need to repent and grow.”

    Source:
    God’s Word as a Mirror – Vision of Hope
    (Important Note: I do not believe everything this website teaches; I especially do not hold to their belief in eternal security; I am merely in agreement with the snippet of words I quoted in my post here).
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The context was not for the council of the Apostles to determine whether Paul was preaching the legitimate Gospel. It was to make them aware that there were false apostles who were pretending to have been sent by the Jerusalem Apostles to teach the Gentile churches that they needed to be circumcised and to keep the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. The result was that the Apostles assured Paul and Barnabas that these false apostles were not sent by them at all, and they gave a short list of recommended things the Gentiles should not do to stablise the relationship between Gentile and Jewish believers. It was a temporary measure, because Paul did not keep to that list when he was instructing the Corinthians about eating food dedicated to idols.

    But the signs the Jews were looking for were not healing and casting out of demons. But that when their Messiah was to appear that he would be a conquering hero who was going to kick out the Romans and restore their sovereignty. Because Jesus did not show that sign, they rejected Him. The signs and wonders that Paul performed and described to the Apostles were to show the Apostles that Paul was preaching the same Gospel they were and that the healing and casting out of demons that they were doing, was the same as what Paul was doing. What is needed is to read what the Scripture actually says, rather than reading into it what is not there at all.

    Again you are commenting on verses and ignoring the context. Paul was not speaking to all the Jews when he quoted the Isaiah Scripture. The judgment was on the nation of Israel in Isaiah's time, not Paul's. He was applying Isaiah to those Jews who were not accepting the Gospel and who were arguing among themselves. He was not using the quote to pronounce judgment on the whole nation of Israel.

    Also, to say that instant healing and casting out of demons stopped after Acts 28 is to ignore what was happening through the ministry of the other eleven Apostles, of whom Luke does not mention. Luke's account in the latter states of Acts was all about Paul's ministry. There were the other eleven Apostles preaching the same Gospel with the same signs and wonders that Paul did. Luke doesn't mention them, but that does not mean that they were not happening. So you are making definite statements about things that are well outside your knowledge of what was going on apart from Paul's ministry. You don't know how Peter's ministry progressed, or John's, or Barnabas' or any of the other Apostles. So you can make definite statements where there is no evidence to back you up. You can only go on with guesswork based on the silence of Scripture about the overall ministry of the Apostles along with Paul.


    Of course, you are quoting part of the passage, making it appear that Paul was speaking generally of the Jews as a nation, instead of directing to those who were disagreeing with him. You are leaving out the part where many of the Jews who heard him actually believed what Paul was teaching and turned to Christ. You have also left out the final verses where Paul continued to teach the Gospel boldly to all who listened to him. Luke doesn't say what happened after that, because that was the end of Luke's journal. It is said that Paul was released from prison afterwards and continued his ministry, but was imprisoned later under Nero and was executed. We have no record of Paul's continued ministry after Acts 28, nor of the ministry of the other Apostles. But there are clues in early church historical writings that give us some indication of how the other Apostles, including Paul got on.

    So what true meaning do you think Paul stated in Romans 11:11? It seems that you are taking one verse out of context to support your predetermined premise, which is...
     
  5. IWalkAlone

    IWalkAlone Well-Known Member

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    If I understand i agree.
     
  6. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You do realized Paul, whose handkerchiefs could heal before Acts 28, could no longer heal at will, by the end of his ministry?

    Otherwise, he will not have stated 1 Timothy 5:23 to Timothy, nor have to leave a beloved co-worker sick in 2 Timothy 4:20.

    So there are recorded scripture that implied that, its just whether you want to take them seriously or not.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Face to face works perfectly in light of it being God’s Word in 1 Corinthians 13. I believe we will see our image conform or change to the image of Christ in light of the "Bible / Glass / Mirror" by our obedience to Jesus's commands (Note: See the pictures below within this post). As we obey His Word, we conform more to the likeness of Christ and when we look in the mirror of God's Word (the Bible), we see the image of Christ in the reflection and not our old reflection by the fact that we are conforming to that "perfect Word" that He has given us. So yes. We do see Christ in the mirror "face to face" but it is only by our conforming to Christ by our obedience to Him. The focus of 1 Corinthians 13 is love. Loving as Christ loved. As a whole: 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14 are dealing with gifts. Although these gifts were necessary at one time (to confirm the Word of the New Covenant and the early church), these gifts have ceased, and they are no longer needed (Because that which is "perfect" has come, i.e. the Bible) whereby we can be "perfect" or be a "mature man" by obeying God's Word by faith (and not by sight). For 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is profitable for doctrine so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work.

    "And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord..." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (AMPC).

    "As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18) (ISV).

    "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (John 6:40).

    2 "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."
    (1 John 3:2-3).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    To all:

    [​IMG]

    "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2).

    16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    Gifts (the miraculous sign gifts) are something people can see. But the Word of God (the Bible) is a faith thing.

    Jesus said,
    "...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

    This would be us today with the Bible.
    We don't need spiritual gifts to see in order to believe.

    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).


    Side Note:

    The second image (above) that has a picture of Christ is not what Jesus obviously looks like. I only posted this image for illustrative purposes only. Jesus is not white or European and He more than likely did not have long hair, either.
     
  8. IWalkAlone

    IWalkAlone Well-Known Member

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    Thats strange.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The disciples were told to raise the dead, and cleanse lepers.
    Do you believe any apostle today does these things?
    I have not seen it with my own two eyes.
    Granted, I am not saying God does not have the power to do so.
    He most certainly can do so today if He wanted His people to do that.
    The point is… why don’t we see these things today?
    This is more proof that Partial Cessation of the gifts is true.
    In fact, Scripture even explains this. But some folks simply do not want to accept it. They want miracles to continue. I want to honor God’s Word and be real with what we observe.
     
  10. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Out of context - the passage has some elements of 1 Corinthians 13, but HAS NO FACE TO FACE interaction in the perfect law of liberty - thus THE most crucial part of that passage is completely lacking.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It’s not out of context at all if we understand James’ analogy and apply it to 1 Corinthians 13. James refers to the perfect Law of liberty and refers to doing God’s Word in relation to our looking in a mirror. We naturally see ourselves face to face in a mirror when we look in it. This is what 1 Corinthians 13 is describing but it is referring how our looking into this mirror (knowledge of God’s Word or communication to us) is darkened. For have you ever looked in a mirror in a dark bathroom before? Or have you looked through a dirty mirror before? You are getting an incomplete picture of who you are face to face. The idea is that we are conforming to the image of Christ inside of us when we look in the mirror. So we should see Jesus in us when we look in the mirror if we obey the Word. For looking at our own life (i.e. the mirror), we should see Jesus by the things He did. We are face to face with ourselves. But don’t be forgetful of who you are in Christ by not being a doer of the Word. So if we are to be consistent with Scripture and let the Bible interpret the Bible, we know 1 Corinthians 13 makes perfect sense (along with 1 Corinthians 14). For babies make babbling noises. This is what the Corinthians sounded like when they spoke in tongues without an interpreter present. Paul is saying that this form of speaking is analogous to being childlike (serving the kingdom of God for a time according to His purposes in confirming the Word - Mark 16:20), whereby he would grow into a man when the NT canon is complete (Whereby he will not hear babbling anymore but he will hear the Word of God more completely and fully like never before).
     
  12. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    You can dance around all you want, but the fact remains that when that which is perfect comes, prophecy, knowledge and tongues all end - yet per tge clear texts I posted, knowledge increases in the end times, and God pours out His spirit in the last days, and prophecy and visions result.
    Thus those two have most certainly not ended in these end times and last days - and Peter makes clear in Acts 2 that the same gift of the spirit the 120 received at Pentecost is in effect for all who are afar oof, as long as God still calls anyone.
    The fact that you reject that highly educated cessationists state you cannot use 1 Corinthians 13 to prove cessationism, is very telling.
    You haven’t mistakenly been highlighting scripture with a black magic marker, have you?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I cannot obey the command to raise the dead.
    Has anyone here tried to do so?
    I believe they will not be able to do it because… it was for the early apostles to confirm the Word with signs following (Mark 16:20). It was for the early church and not for us. We have to be able to rightly divide. Now, if you want to prove me wrong… then invite me to a live session whereby you can prove to me you can raise the dead or some other believer today can.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Just because Luke doesn't mention it, it didn't take place. Luke did not intend to write a comprehensive historical text book on the whole history of the early church. All he did was to write about what he had researched, and his own observations as he accompanied Paul on his mission journeys.

    It looks like you have not read my previous posts where I have clearly said that the signs and wonders performed by Paul were directed towards confirming the Gospel to the unconverted Jews and pagans. I have also clearly stated that if a believer is sick and getting him healed would not be directly related to the confirmation of the preaching of the Gospel, then it doesn't have to happen. So Paul leaving a co-worker sick is not inconsistent with signs and wonders associated with the preaching of the Gospel. Therefore there was no Gospel reason why the co-worker should have received automatic healing from Paul. The same applies with Timothy who had digestion issues which needed to be relieved by a little wine. Timothy did not have to be healed in order to confirm the truth of the Gospel to the pagans.

    I have already clearly stated that I don't believe in guaranteed healing for Christian believers. I'm surprised that you missed that, but rather continues to push reasons why healing is not guaranteed for believers. You are actually preaching this to the converted!
     
  15. IWalkAlone

    IWalkAlone Well-Known Member

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    I can't drink poison or handle rattlesnakes so don't feel bad.
     
  16. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    No, the prayer is clearly implying that God will heal them. That there are eschatological shadings is secondary to the principal thrust that the first response to issues such as should be to turn to God in supplication. Most treat prayer as a last resort, as if all the other options have to be exhausted before going to God because miracles and such are some kind of inconvenience or something. But it is God's desire to give us what we ask for we are told:

    7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!(Matt. 7:7-11 ESV)
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    In my first reply to you, Unbelievers Turn To Christ When Witnessing A Miracle While Professing Christians Argue About It, I stated

    Do you agree with my point above? If not, then no, I cannot be preaching to the converted.
     
  18. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    You cannot conclude that because James did not state that. You can form an opinion no problem, but you cannot claim that the prayer is clearly implying that God will heal them.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Peter was speaking of how he was in the last days in Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18.

    For Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it clear that the author of Hebrews expresses how he believed how God the Father spoke to us by His Son in the last days he was currently living in.

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,” (Hebrews 1:1-2).

    By Acts of the Apostles 2:20, we definitely see a fast forward to a future time that has not happened yet. But this is not uncommon in prophecy for some things in a piece of Scripture to be fulfilled in one point of time while the next portion is fulfilled at a later time. So in Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18, Peter is referring to the last days from his perspective and these last days would continue on with the future end times beyond our day with the sun turning into darkness. So there is no contradiction when it comes to Cessationism (When we read Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18). The Spirit will be poured upon all flesh in the fact that both Jews and Gentiles (Cornelius) had been baptized into the Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  20. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This is an example of using the Scripture to fit in with a predetermined premise, by quoting verses out of their natural context to prove the point.

    James comment about looking at oneself in a mirror then walking away forgetting what one sees of himself , is quite different to Paul's comment about looking in an imperfect mirror in terms of having incomplete knowledge about the things of God. Paul's context is that we have partial knowledge and we give partial prophecies, but when we are face to face with the Lord our knowledge will be complete.

    It is the same confusion that exists between interpretation of Paul and James concerning faith and works. Paul and James are speaking entirely different things about them. Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. James says that the person who says they have faith would demonstrate it by what he does or doesn't do. Paul talks about salvation coming apart from works, James talks about works happening as the result of saving faith. When looked at together, Paul and James are both correct. Salvation is achieved by faith in Christ finished work on the Cross and no works by us can contribute to it. But once a person is saved, there are preordained works through the work of the Holy Spirit in us that are produced in us - ie: the fruit of the Spirit. So James is not saying that we are saved through a combination of faith and works, and Paul is not saying that a person who is saved by faith in Christ won't demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit instead of the works of the flesh.

    And to make a jump between 1 Corinthians 13 which speaks about the attributes of love, to 1 Corinthians 14 which teaches about the right use of tongues is unreliable. Nowhere does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 14 that people who speak in tongues babble like babies. That is adding to Paul's teaching that isn't there. In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is not talking about the gifts of the Spirit at all. He is speaking about the enduring of love all the way into eternity, and that what we are doing during the church age is compared to doing childish things in comparison to what we will be doing when we get into eternity with the Lord.

    If Paul is referring to babies in 1 Corinthians, he is commenting on the divisiveness of those who have their preferred teachers and their disrespect for the Lord's Supper, as well as allowing a person with serious sexual sin to remain in the fellowship. None of what he says about baby Christians has anything to do with the gifts of the Spirit. In fact, he says that they are right up there in God with the Gifts, and speaking in tongues is giving thanks to God well. So, giving thanks to God well (appropriately) is not a set of babies babbling away in pointless gibbering, but speaking in expressive, articulate languages that God understands and accepts as people speaking of His wonderful works.

    Your comment about "growing into a man when the NT canon is complete" is nonsense given the events of church history. Once the canon was complete, the church went into ritual, formalism and apostacy for the next thousand years until the Reformation. So the advent of the NT canon did not produce "manly", mature Christian believers. It produced continued spiritual "children" blinding accepting the inventions of a church hierarchy that was depending on imaginary tradition rather than the truth of Scripture. Even now in our modern churches we don't have mature Christian believers, superior in spiritual development to those way back in the 1st Century.
     
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