UMC church and state

lucaspa

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The United States deliberately does not have a "national god". Most of the major Founding Fathers -- Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison -- were deists, not Christians. They had some very disparaging things to say about Christianity and its behavior. They deliberately set up a state without a deity. All the expressions about God we are used to -- on our money, in the Pledge, etc. -- all came later. So what is the position of the UMC on the separation of church and state?

Separation of Church and State

"We believe in the Christian church, the community of God's people founded on the confession of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the universal church, which is united by its common faith in Him. The church participates in the worship of God, the fellowship and training of believers, and the spread of God's love in the world. This ministry of God's love continues in the church as people are called to love and to bring together those who are separated from God and each other (Matthew 16:16-18; John 3:16-17; 2 Corinthians 5:14-20). On the other hand, we believe that government is an institution established by God for the welfare of society. Government, as many other things in creation, is a part of God's common grace to humanity. This is a grace where all members of society benefit, whether they are Christians or not."

"The fact that God allows for the establishment of governments cannot be interpreted to mean that they are all good, as we can see in Scripture. As a matter of fact many governments act contradicting God's will. The reality is that governments fail as human beings fail to live according to God's will."

This, IMO, is why it is so dangerous to try to merge government and God and equate government with God or to say we have "God's nation." Governments are formed by fallible, sinful human beings. To equate government and God or to say "we have a Christian nation" is to elevate these fallible, sinful humans to the level of God. It allows sinful people -- and we are all sinful people, right? -- to do sinful things and have them mistaken for the will and purpose of God. This is stated in the UMC as:

"The above in no way equates God and government, on the contrary there is no way to reconcile God's purpose for government with a government that acts contrary to God's will. There are many examples where governments pervert this God-given authority. It is in situations such as this where the prophetic voice of the church best honors its responsibility to the state, and its faithfulness to the gospel, by calling the state to accountability. Christians must become the conscience of government, in the best sense of the prophetic tradition. As Martin Luther King, Jr. once stated: "The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool." "

If we equate God and the state, then we lose the ability to do our duty to God and act as conscience for the state. When the government/state is equated to God, then the church becomes the tool of the state, because then the church cannot criticize the state. After all, we don't criticize God, do we? IMO, the idea that we have a "national God" or a "Christian nation" is a trap. It makes us a tool of politics, not the conscience of politics. It leads us to worship 2 masters, because the state and God can NEVER be one and the same. God is God, the state or government is humans.
 
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Lee52

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The United States deliberately does not have a "national god". Most of the major Founding Fathers -- Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison -- were deists, not Christians. They had some very disparaging things to say about Christianity and its behavior. They deliberately set up a state without a deity. All the expressions about God we are used to -- on our money, in the Pledge, etc. -- all came later. So what is the position of the UMC on the separation of church and state?

Separation of Church and State

"We believe in the Christian church, the community of God's people founded on the confession of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the universal church, which is united by its common faith in Him. The church participates in the worship of God, the fellowship and training of believers, and the spread of God's love in the world. This ministry of God's love continues in the church as people are called to love and to bring together those who are separated from God and each other (Matthew 16:16-18; John 3:16-17; 2 Corinthians 5:14-20). On the other hand, we believe that government is an institution established by God for the welfare of society. Government, as many other things in creation, is a part of God's common grace to humanity. This is a grace where all members of society benefit, whether they are Christians or not."

"The fact that God allows for the establishment of governments cannot be interpreted to mean that they are all good, as we can see in Scripture. As a matter of fact many governments act contradicting God's will. The reality is that governments fail as human beings fail to live according to God's will."

This, IMO, is why it is so dangerous to try to merge government and God and equate government with God or to say we have "God's nation." Governments are formed by fallible, sinful human beings. To equate government and God or to say "we have a Christian nation" is to elevate these fallible, sinful humans to the level of God. It allows sinful people -- and we are all sinful people, right? -- to do sinful things and have them mistaken for the will and purpose of God. This is stated in the UMC as:

"The above in no way equates God and government, on the contrary there is no way to reconcile God's purpose for government with a government that acts contrary to God's will. There are many examples where governments pervert this God-given authority. It is in situations such as this where the prophetic voice of the church best honors its responsibility to the state, and its faithfulness to the gospel, by calling the state to accountability. Christians must become the conscience of government, in the best sense of the prophetic tradition. As Martin Luther King, Jr. once stated: "The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool." "

If we equate God and the state, then we lose the ability to do our duty to God and act as conscience for the state. When the government/state is equated to God, then the church becomes the tool of the state, because then the church cannot criticize the state. After all, we don't criticize God, do we? IMO, the idea that we have a "national God" or a "Christian nation" is a trap. It makes us a tool of politics, not the conscience of politics. It leads us to worship 2 masters, because the state and God can NEVER be one and the same. God is God, the state or government is humans.

I agree, and:

“Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22:20-22&version=ESV
and

“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”


Blessings,
Lee
 
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Creech

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I agree with most of the things in the post, but to say we are a christian nation is certainly not out of the question. A nation is not a government, but a people, and America has always had a traditionally Christian people.

And although many of the founding fathers were deists, they respected religion for the most part and still believed in Christian values and teachings.
 
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Lee52

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I agree with most of the things in the post, but to say we are a christian nation is certainly not out of the question. A nation is not a government, but a people, and America has always had a traditionally Christian people.

And although many of the founding fathers were deists, they respected religion for the most part and still believed in Christian values and teachings.

True. Also, George Washington might be one that should not be on lucaspa's list. He attended Christ Church in Alexandria, VA, which is still standing and still holds worship services each Sunday. Washington freed his slaves as a man who found that owning other people was contrary to his faith. If one investigates beyond the anti-Christian rhetoric of the atheist movement in the USA and their version of history, one will find Washington to be a quiet man of faith, perhaps even a Christian. But, shhhhhh, we would not want the re-writers of history to find that their campaign to eliminate Jesus from ALL of the founding fathers of the USA is actually quite untrue.
 
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GadFly

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The United States deliberately does not have a "national god". Most of the major Founding Fathers -- Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison -- were deists, not Christians. They had some very disparaging things to say about Christianity and its behavior. They deliberately set up a state without a deity. All the expressions about God we are used to -- on our money, in the Pledge, etc. -- all came later. So what is the position of the UMC on the separation of church and state?
Your premises are all incorrect. Whether all these fellows were Christian or not was never the issue; the issue was whether or not, did our rights and freedom came from God or from kings and rulers of me? We the people confirmed that these rights and liberties came from God. Most Americans were Christians and they debated issues of doctrine but there was no debate about what was the source of our freedoms and you can not cite any national reference to humanism as being a source of our freedoms, now can you?

Separation of Church and State

"We believe in the Christian church, the community of God's people founded on the confession of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the universal church, which is united by its common faith in Him. The church participates in the worship of God, the fellowship and training of believers, and the spread of God's love in the world. This ministry of God's love continues in the church as people are called to love and to bring together those who are separated from God and each other (Matthew 16:16-18; John 3:16-17; 2 Corinthians 5:14-20). On the other hand, we believe that government is an institution established by God for the welfare of society. Government, as many other things in creation, is a part of God's common grace to humanity. This is a grace where all members of society benefit, whether they are Christians or not."
You go to great effort to explain how God works in America, why not admit and emphasize that the chief benefit for all men is to come to know Christ? You are a Christian and that should be a very easy assertion to make. People who do not acknowledge Christ are Wrong and need to be shown the light. This can be done without being brutal or harsh. Christians do have the genteelness of the Holy Spirit that the world does not have.

"The fact that God allows for the establishment of governments cannot be interpreted to mean that they are all good, as we can see in Scripture. As a matter of fact many governments act contradicting God's will. The reality is that governments fail as human beings fail to live according to God's will."
Yes, but you can number on one hand the countries that have chosen to be one nation under God and to trust in God. Why not honor God for making these countries strong in providing freedoms?
This, IMO, is why it is so dangerous to try to merge government and God and equate government with God or to say we have "God's nation." Governments are formed by fallible, sinful human beings. To equate government and God or to say "we have a Christian nation" is to elevate these fallible, sinful humans to the level of God. It allows sinful people -- and we are all sinful people, right? -- to do sinful things and have them mistaken for the will and purpose of God. This is stated in the UMC as:
Your opinion is wrong! It is not founded on the Scriptures or any American historical documents. It is based on some far out idea of liberalism and humanism.We can give and submit our lives to God as individuals and as a nation. Being a Christian is a choice as being a Christian nation is a choice. To continue to sin is also is a choice,which you do not have to make, right? Christ makes us righteous, right?

"The above in no way equates God and government, on the contrary there is no way to reconcile God's purpose for government with a government that acts contrary to God's will. There are many examples where governments pervert this God-given authority. It is in situations such as this where the prophetic voice of the church best honors its responsibility to the state, and its faithfulness to the gospel, by calling the state to accountability. Christians must become the conscience of government, in the best sense of the prophetic tradition. As Martin Luther King, Jr. once stated: "The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool." "
You leave out that worshiping by truth and Spirit thing that Christians do. You confuse that thing that Christians do with the confused mind of liberals that is trying to escape spiritual accountability.
If we equate God and the state, then we lose the ability to do our duty to God and act as conscience for the state. When the government/state is equated to God, then the church becomes the tool of the state, because then the church cannot criticize the state. After all, we don't criticize God, do we? IMO, the idea that we have a "national God" or a "Christian nation" is a trap. It makes us a tool of politics, not the conscience of politics. It leads us to worship 2 masters, because the state and God can NEVER be one and the same. God is God, the state or government is humans.
Nobody wants to insult you brother but what you have just said is not Christian doctrine. Every person stands and falls based on his own life style. That is the same with every nation as God will judge each nation. What will be the outcome of judgment, who knows? But I do know we can choose God as our national God and it is fine with me to be trapped in his love.
 
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GadFly

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I agree, and:

“Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22:20-22&version=ESV
and

“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”


Blessings,
Lee
Lee my brother, you misinterpret these verses as they in no way support separation of state and government.God's kingdom is in this world but it is not of this world. There is a great difference. If God's kingdom was not in this world to save us, we would be powerless to preach the Gospel.

Rendering to Caesar does not mean setting God aside and living a secular life. In all situations we remain committed to God but we at the same time, we pay taxes and are allowed to use the public highways and other social and government services. If we choose to be, we can be one nation under God and we can trust in God.

All Christians should take warning before they choose to separate God and state because once you separate from God, you have separated from the source of human rights and freedoms. That is the real trap to which Satan is working towards.
 
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GadFly

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I agree with most of the things in the post, but to say we are a christian nation is certainly not out of the question. A nation is not a government, but a people, and America has always had a traditionally Christian people.

And although many of the founding fathers were deists, they respected religion for the most part and still believed in Christian values and teachings.
Very well said my brother.
 
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GadFly

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It is time that the opening statement of this this thread be pointed out as analytically and absolutely false; The United States deliberately does not have a "national god".

The success of the entire liberal argument to eliminate God from the constitution of the United States rest on the naive acceptance of this very incorrect idea that there is any condemnation of God being merged with government. That was the main idea of the former USSR and today's main belief of atheistic liberals. Keep jn mind, no person on the WP has dared to deny that the majority of liberals in this world are philosophical atheist and it is doubtful that there is an honest Christian that would challenge this assertion made by the Godfly. Although there are some that would love to challenge me on this, the truth does not need my support as i is powerful enough to stand on its own merit.

Being analytically and logically smart, it is a fact that every important historical document points out that Americans almost 100% believed human rights, liberties, and freedoms were the gifts that came from God. We have asked liberals to name one single right that Americans have that has been granted Americans that have been give to us by a church, humanism, or liberalism.Americans have always held that these self-evident truths came from God. Yes, it is a lie that God is not merged with the government of the United States.

You that agree with the OP, you have been duped in a big but a subtle way in agreeing to take God out of the reach of God's children. Since the Constitution and the Declaration support self-evident rights that come from God, to eliminate God is the same as eliminating all the rights noted in the Constitution. The fact that liberals would do this is evidence that they are on the wrong side of the history of freedom and the history of our nation.

You will find millions of Americans willing to die for "God and Country" but has anybody said they would die for liberalism and country? Only a few mad
atheist are willing to die to weaken the godly resolve of the U.S.A. We have merged government with God. We are one nation under God and we do trust in God. This thread is based on a false logic and misjudgment IMHO as based on the facts.
 
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food4thought

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Gadfly, I think you miss something important here... we are a government of "we the people", which is the essence of democracy. As long as the people are mostly Christian (more than just in name, but also in word and deed), such a nation will rightly be called a Christian nation. But if you honestly look around at our people, we are no longer a truly Christian nation even if we once were; and to argue the points you make would be missing the fundamental issue: the failure of the church to spread the gospel and make disciples. Fix that problem, and over time we will be able to call ourselves a Christian nation in truth.

Right now, I cannot do it.
 
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GadFly

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Gadfly, I think you miss something important here... we are a government of "we the people", which is the essence of democracy. As long as the people are mostly Christian (more than just in name, but also in word and deed), such a nation will rightly be called a Christian nation. But if you honestly look around at our people, we are no longer a truly Christian nation even if we once were; and to argue the points you make would be missing the fundamental issue: the failure of the church to spread the gospel and make disciples. Fix that problem, and over time we will be able to call ourselves a Christian nation in truth.

Right now, I cannot do it.
Dear Brother, you miss the point of what I am saying. History plainly teaches that we have all our rights because we believe rights are self-evident and because these come from God, not humanism or any form of humanism. Not a sigle fact of American history says that we have our rights from any other source than from GOD. If there is another source of freedom, name that source now. "We the people" is saying that we agree that God is the authority of human rights. To explain human riggts in any other way is an un-Christian philosphical mistake IMHO;. and THIS FALSE PREMIS you offer opens the gate for all types of atheism. LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE ONE NATION UNDER GOD. God and American goverment are strongly merged and Christians should do nothing to weahen this link.
 
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GadFly

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The United States deliberately does not have a "national god". Most of the major Founding Fathers -- Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison -- were deists, not Christians. They had some very disparaging things to say about Christianity and its behavior. They deliberately set up a state without a deity. All the expressions about God we are used to -- on our money, in the Pledge, etc. -- all came later. So what is the position of the UMC on the separation of church and state?

Separation of Church and State

"We believe in the Christian church, the community of God's people founded on the confession of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the universal church, which is united by its common faith in Him. The church participates in the worship of God, the fellowship and training of believers, and the spread of God's love in the world. This ministry of God's love continues in the church as people are called to love and to bring together those who are separated from God and each other (Matthew 16:16-18; John 3:16-17; 2 Corinthians 5:14-20). On the other hand, we believe that government is an institution established by God for the welfare of society. Government, as many other things in creation, is a part of God's common grace to humanity. This is a grace where all members of society benefit, whether they are Christians or not."

"The fact that God allows for the establishment of governments cannot be interpreted to mean that they are all good, as we can see in Scripture. As a matter of fact many governments act contradicting God's will. The reality is that governments fail as human beings fail to live according to God's will."

This, IMO, is why it is so dangerous to try to merge government and God and equate government with God or to say we have "God's nation." Governments are formed by fallible, sinful human beings. To equate government and God or to say "we have a Christian nation" is to elevate these fallible, sinful humans to the level of God. It allows sinful people -- and we are all sinful people, right? -- to do sinful things and have them mistaken for the will and purpose of God. This is stated in the UMC as:

"The above in no way equates God and government, on the contrary there is no way to reconcile God's purpose for government with a government that acts contrary to God's will. There are many examples where governments pervert this God-given authority. It is in situations such as this where the prophetic voice of the church best honors its responsibility to the state, and its faithfulness to the gospel, by calling the state to accountability. Christians must become the conscience of government, in the best sense of the prophetic tradition. As Martin Luther King, Jr. once stated: "The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool." "

If we equate God and the state, then we lose the ability to do our duty to God and act as conscience for the state. When the government/state is equated to God, then the church becomes the tool of the state, because then the church cannot criticize the state. After all, we don't criticize God, do we? IMO, the idea that we have a "national God" or a "Christian nation" is a trap. It makes us a tool of politics, not the conscience of politics. It leads us to worship 2 masters, because the state and God can NEVER be one and the same. God is God, the state or government is humans.
There may be a misunderstanding in this thread. Nobody is equating the church, any church, to God. These are not one and the same.

What we Christians mean when we say America is a Christian nation and that God is our national God is that we promise to do our best in following His commands and that we will allow Him to guide us whereas an humanistic country might believe that there is no God to lead a country. As you say any person or country can sin and do wrong. Sin, however, is less likely if one is trying to follow God. In this case, the church's role is, like you say, teach what the Gospel is.
 
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food4thought

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Dear Brother, you miss the point of what I am saying. History plainly teaches that we have all our rights because we believe rights are self-evident and because these come from God, not humanism or any form of humanism. Not a sigle fact of American history says that we have our rights from any other source than from GOD. If there is another source of freedom, name that source now. "We the people" is saying that we agree that God is the authority of human rights. To explain human riggts in any other way is an un-Christian philosphical mistake IMHO;. and THIS FALSE PREMIS you offer opens the gate for all types of atheism. LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE ONE NATION UNDER GOD. God and American goverment are strongly merged and Christians should do nothing to weahen this link.

Good friend, I agree with you whole heartedly that our rights and freedoms come from God and not any human establishment. Secular humanism is the enemy of the gospel as you have so consistently pointed out, and again I agree. My point is that the constitution was deliberately made to be maleable to the will of the people... we as a nation can change what the constitution says. The courts have already done their best to change what it means, yet an even worse thing awaits if we do not correct the failure of our churches to spread the gospel and make disciples: we will see the people elect representatives that will significantly change what the constitution says, thus undermining the legal status of our freedoms. They cannot take away our God given rights to these freedoms, but we the people can have the freedoms taken from us legally. Our freedom to worship; to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; our freedom of assembly, free speech, to keep and bear arms, etc... all these can be changed by a supermajority vote in congress and of the governors. If the people turn their backs on God, He would be just to allow these things to happen, would He not?

The only way to see Godly men elected is to have the majority of "we the people" seeking to have it so. The only way for the majority to seek to have it so is for the majority to be truly transformed by the gospel and discipleship. The only way for this to happen is for the church to do what it should be doing. A Godly electorate preserves the nation, giving us in theory godly leaders who will write godly laws and protect our God given rights and freedoms. If the people turn back to God, He would be just to allow these things to happen, would He not?

Do you see what I mean, brother? I am not advocating a withdrawl from politics, but engagement. Yet if we do not spread the gospel and make disciples, our electorate will become increasingly secular in it's thinking, and they can AND WILL change our way of life because the framers of the constitution made it possible.
 
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GadFly

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Good friend, I agree with you whole heartedly that our rights and freedoms come from God and not any human establishment. Secular humanism is the enemy of the gospel as you have so consistently pointed out, and again I agree. My point is that the constitution was deliberately made to be maleable to the will of the people... we as a nation can change what the constitution says. The courts have already done their best to change what it means, yet an even worse thing awaits if we do not correct the failure of our churches to spread the gospel and make disciples: we will see the people elect representatives that will significantly change what the constitution says, thus undermining the legal status of our freedoms. They cannot take away our God given rights to these freedoms, but we the people can have the freedoms taken from us legally. Our freedom to worship; to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; our freedom of assembly, free speech, to keep and bear arms, etc... all these can be changed by a supermajority vote in congress and of the governors. If the people turn their backs on God, He would be just to allow these things to happen, would He not?

The only way to see Godly men elected is to have the majority of "we the people" seeking to have it so. The only way for the majority to seek to have it so is for the majority to be truly transformed by the gospel and discipleship. The only way for this to happen is for the church to do what it should be doing. A Godly electorate preserves the nation, giving us in theory godly leaders who will write godly laws and protect our God given rights and freedoms. If the people turn back to God, He would be just to allow these things to happen, would He not?

Do you see what I mean, brother? I am not advocating a withdrawl from politics, but engagement. Yet if we do not spread the gospel and make disciples, our electorate will become increasingly secular in it's thinking, and they can AND WILL change our way of life because the framers of the constitution made it possible.
Yes, I see what you are saying and do agree with you very much.What secular humanism does to Christians is to try to intimidate them from speaking up for their faith as if a Christian's faith is an insult to them. Their pretense is that God used in any political speech is illegal but God is the premise of American politics and we Christians either use Him as our method or we lose our God in our government.

Liberals who pretend to be 100% Christians and become Federal Judges will continue to confuse the principle of "separation of church and state" as the same thing as separation of God and state. As Christians we need to keep religious issues ever coming before the courts to show the differences between the two principles, lest the American people become more and more afraid to use God in any public forum. We need to change the idea that praying in public to God violates anybody's rights by our praying to God in public is a patriotic act as if we really believed our rights come from the Creator.

A Federal Judge in our area told the high school graduating class that they could not pray to God at graduation time because an atheist child would be offended. The class stood up and said the Lord's Prayer any way. We never heard a word from that judge. What are these liberal judges going to do? Are they going to put our children in jail? Even the most liberal judge know that we are one nation under God. Lib and then liberalism can only go so far and then worshiping Christians can stop them in their tracks by God's Spirit.
 
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BryanW92

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I find it interesting that liberals are to blame over and over here. It really isn't enough if I happen to agree. Continue on.

I find it interesting too. But, its never a conservative who files the lawsuit to remove a sign, or a nativity scene, or to tell a child that she can't sing "Jesus Loves Me" at a public school talent show.

Like most liberals, they took a good idea (i.e. there should not be a national religion or denomination that defines God and worship) and stretched it to absurdity (i.e. the Freedom From Religion Foundation, etc). I don't think they really mean what they do, but the great Civil Rights battles of the previous generations are all won and the modern liberal is a revolutionary in search of a revolution. So, they have to find "code words" in everything that is said, they have to find discrimination in everything they see, and they have to see religion oppressing free people everywhere they see religion.

As they continue to look for causes in the absurd, they reach the point where they become the ones with "code words", they are the ones who discriminate, and they are the ones who create religious oppression.

It is quite interesting and quite sad that they have taken such noble causes and turned them upside down.
 
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