Ukrainian President Zelenskyy's heartbreaking, defiant speech to the Russian people

Warden_of_the_Storm

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Part me of doesn't agree with the phrase 'defiant', but he's a man who's refused to abandon Kyiv, even when there's been reports of Russian troops in the city and also has claimed that he, his family, and the Ukrainian government is a target of these troops as well. So he is a courageous man.

I will also say: Slava Ukrayini, heroiam slava.
 

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Part me of doesn't agree with the phrase 'defiant', but he's a man who's refused to abandon Kyiv, even when there's been reports of Russian troops in the city and also has claimed that he, his family, and the Ukrainian government is a target of these troops as well. So he is a courageous man.

I will also say: Slava Ukrayini, heroiam slava.

I think he articulated the mood of the Ukrainian people very effectively and diplomatically here in Russian.

He is standing in a city of three million people besieged on every side by a well-equipped and modern army. Arming civilians may well lead to many of them being picked off by the attackers but it also demonstrates that this is a people's war against an aggressor. The Russians thus far have attempted to avoid civilian casualties and have shown some discipline on that front. The widely published pictures in the media are mainly mistakes by Russian forces. But with this discipline comes a cost to Russian infantry trying to take Kiev without artillery or airstrikes that would characterize an all-out war. In these circumstances the defense of Kiev is possible. Many people could starve in a long siege. If the Russians fail to take Kiev he may well still be alive at the end of the siege. He cannot save his country East of the Dnieper but maybe he can salvage its dignity and be at the heart of it when this is all over.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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He is standing in a city of three million people besieged on every side by a well-equipped and modern army. Arming civilians may well lead to many of them being picked off by the attackers but it also demonstrates that this is a people's war against an aggressor. The Russians thus far have attempted to avoid civilian casualties and have shown some discipline on that front. The widely published pictures in the media are mainly mistakes by Russian forces. But with this discipline comes a cost to Russian infantry trying to take Kiev without artillery or airstrikes that would characterize an all-out war. In these circumstances the defense of Kiev is possible. Many people could starve in a long siege. If the Russians fail to take Kiev he may well still be alive at the end of the siege. He cannot save his country East of the Dnieper but maybe he can salvage its dignity and be at the heart of it when this is all over.

Garrisoning your troops in the cities puts them in a strong position defensively, but it also invites heavy civilian casualties. That type of fighting was pioneered in that part of the world though. It was one of the factors that made WWII on the eastern front so bloody.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Garrisoning your troops in the cities puts them in a strong position defensively, but it also invites heavy civilian casualties. That type of fighting was pioneered in that part of the world though. It was one of the factors that made WWII on the eastern front so bloody.
You know what would really prevent civilian casualties? Russia not invading Ukraine.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Garrisoning your troops in the cities puts them in a strong position defensively, but it also invites heavy civilian casualties. That type of fighting was pioneered in that part of the world though. It was one of the factors that made WWII on the eastern front so bloody.

Yeah, someone beat me to it: there would be lot fewer civilian casualties, almost none, if the Russians hadn't invaded Ukraine.

Also... I'm sorry but your comment doesn't really make sense. What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Abandon all their cities to the Russians to level like they did to Grozny in Chechnya, or have the Russians take them over, forcing the Ukrainians into the horrible, hellish mess that is urban warfare?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Yeah, someone beat me to it: there would be lot fewer civilian casualties, almost none, if the Russians hadn't invaded Ukraine.

Also... I'm sorry but your comment doesn't really make sense. What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Abandon all their cities to the Russians to level like they did to Grozny in Chechnya, or have the Russians take them over, forcing the Ukrainians into the horrible, hellish mess that is urban warfare?

Well, during World War I there was a general agreement by both sides that to the extent possible, the fighting was to be kept away from cities, a populated areas generally. That’s why civilian casualties, as a proportion of total casualties, was much smaller.

Grozny was leveled for much the same reason - Chechen terrorists were hiding out there. It was destroyed precisely because it wasn’t abandoned.

Speaking of Grozny, all one has to do is look at the contrast to see how much restraint the Russians are showing in the Ukraine…
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well, during World War I there was a general agreement by both sides that to the extent possible, the fighting was to be kept away from cities, a populated areas generally. That’s why civilian casualties, as a proportion of total casualties, was much smaller.

Grozny was leveled for much the same reason - Chechen terrorists were hiding out there. It was destroyed precisely because it wasn’t abandoned.

Speaking of Grozny, all one has to do is look at the contrast to see how much restraint the Russians are showing in the Ukraine…

There was no such agreement. There was little urban fighting outside of the fighting in Belgium because it's easier to build extensive trench networks in fields than it is in urban areas. It didn't stop the Germans shelling Paris or bombing London though.

You have a ridiculously naive take on war, I have to say. And you also didn't answer my question:
Also... I'm sorry but your comment doesn't really make sense. What were the Ukrainians supposed to do? Abandon all their cities to the Russians to level like they did to Grozny in Chechnya, or have the Russians take them over, forcing the Ukrainians into the horrible, hellish mess that is urban warfare?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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You have a ridiculously naive take on war, I have to say. And you also didn't answer my question:
Also... I'm sorry but your comment doesn't really make sense. What were the Ukrainians supposed to do?

What they will. Garrisoning your troops in the cities does have merits strategically. They are harder to dislodge in an urban battlefield. But it also invites much higher civilian casualties, and the Ukranian army knows this just as well - something to keep in mind when you hear them lament the calamity they brought upon themselves.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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What they will. Garrisoning your troops in the cities does have merits strategically. They are harder to dislodge in an urban battlefield. But it also invites much higher civilian casualties, and the Ukranian army knows this just as well - something to keep in mind when you hear them lament the calamity they brought upon themselves.

And if the Ukrainians shouldn't, according to you, an unknown user on the internet who seems to want to play armchair general, garrison their own cities to defend them from Russian forces, what should they have done instead, since you obviously know more than the heads of the Ukrainian army.

And I really hope that your last comment is somehow you being facetious because you really need to rethink your priorities if you think that Ukrainians brought this onto themselves.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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THEY brought upon THEMSELVES? Excuse me?

Yes, for not allowing peaceful annexation of nazi Ukraine to glorious Russia and turning over Jewish leaders and families of nazi Ukraine to be tried and executed by glorious peace army.
 
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cow451

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Garrisoning your troops in the cities puts them in a strong position defensively, but it also invites heavy civilian casualties. That type of fighting was pioneered in that part of the world though. It was one of the factors that made WWII on the eastern front so bloody.
And they should do what instead?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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And they should do what instead?

Stop acting as if they don't know that garrisoning their troops in the cities invites heavy civilian casualties, especially since so recently the shoe was on the other foot. What the Russian army is doing in Ukranian cities now does not essentially differ from what the Ukranian army did to Donetsk eight years ago...

...what goes around comes around, it seems.
 
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Opdrey

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Stop acting as if they don't know that garrisoning their troops in the cities invites heavy civilian casualties, especially since so recently the shoe was on the other foot. What the Russian army is doing in Ukranian cities now does not essentially differ from what the Ukranian army did to Donetsk eight years ago...

...what goes around comes around, it seems.

It's unfortunate that Russia has decided to try to take over a country rather than having a set of battles in open fields like back in the 14th century.

Russia wants to take over Kyiv (and other cities). So if the Ukrainian military moved out to some random open field miles away do you think the Russians would leave Kyiv and Mariupol alone?
 
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Part me of doesn't agree with the phrase 'defiant', but he's a man who's refused to abandon Kyiv, even when there's been reports of Russian troops in the city and also has claimed that he, his family, and the Ukrainian government is a target of these troops as well. So he is a courageous man.

I will also say: Slava Ukrayini, heroiam slava.

I hope some Russians can hear it!
 
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Red Gold

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Stop acting as if they don't know that garrisoning their troops in the cities invites heavy civilian casualties, especially since so recently the shoe was on the other foot. What the Russian army is doing in Ukranian cities now does not essentially differ from what the Ukranian army did to Donetsk eight years ago...

...what goes around comes around, it seems.


You seem to be very very ill informed.
Where do you get your infos from?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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You seem to be very very ill informed.
Where do you get your infos from?

From the news. I actually followed what was going on in Donbas in 2014. The Ukrainian army was used against Ukrainian citizens in violation of their own constitution. They shelled Donetsk. Thousands were killed. That’s a matter of record. Now, after how they treated their own citizens, they have nerve to whine about how Russia is behaving.
 
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