U.S. helicopter fires at Baghdad crowd

bmw22

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Law of Loud said:
Out of the ten most recent additions to Iraq Body Count, 8 of them were certainly killed by insurgents, two more were most likely killed by insurgents or in firefights, and the final six were likely killed by either the police at the checkpoint, or by the Iraqis who either picked a fight there, or tried to run it. Either way, those final six were as much to blame on the law-breakers as on the US military.
I agree with you, and thankyou for your informative post, you raise a good point. I think we can see that when it comes to the military's efforts to minimize civilian casualties, they are doing probably as near best as they can in the face of this increasingly massive insurgency. Also, this insurgency does not particularly care of innocent Iraqis dying, and you raised that point. Recently, most of the killing has been done by these groups.

However, I still think you have to concede my point that it is not "wistful" to say that thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed in the initial invasion. The article I quoted from was published June 13, 2003. Again, the key points are:

[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]
At least 5,000 civilians may have been killed during the invasion of Iraq, an independent research group has claimed. As more evidence is collated, it says, the figure could reach 10,000.
[/font][font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Iraq Body Count (IBC), a volunteer group of British and US academics and researchers, compiled statistics on civilian casualties from media reports and estimated that between 5,000 and 7,000 civilians died in the conflict.

[/font][font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Three completed studies suggest that between 1,700 and 2,356 civilians died in the battle for Baghdad alone.

I think, based on this, it is perfectly acceptable to conclude that our administration, not our military, did not care too much about the deaths of Iraqi civilians, and the insurgent groups aren't much better.
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Sir Monks

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Absolute rubbish, to tell the truth I'm sick of people like you who seem to place no value on human life and don't see anything wrong with an American helicopter firing on an unarmed crowd.

I am tired of people like you who take the side of Iraqis standing on American Property/soil and waving a banner like the own or won something.

maybe they will think next time before they step on an American military vehicle
 
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burrow_owl

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Sir Monks said:
I am tired of people like you who take the side of Iraqis standing on American Property/soil and waving a banner like the own or won something.
Indeed. When will people learn that if you don't support firing rockets into crowds of Iraqis, the terrorists have won?

maybe they will think next time before they step on an American military vehicle
Yaaaaaahooooo! Now that's foreign policy!
 
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UberLutheran

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Sir Monks said:
So are you blaming the administration on this or are you NOT supporting the military on this action?

1) As a general rule, I do support our military.
2) I don't support those in the military who perform fundamentally immoral acts, such as firing into a crowd of demonstrators or those who rape and torture prisoners.
3) I absolutely do not support the Bush administration on their pretenses for invading Iraq; nor do I support how they've (once again) managed to completely bungle the operation; nor will I support the Bush administration; and I'm doing everything in my power to make sure there won't BE a second Bush administration!
 
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SirKenin

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eldermike said:
From what I read this was not a John Kerry type (spray the village) shooting, it was simply policy to destory the vechicle.
Lol :D True enough. What would it be like if John Kerry was in power? "I'm not going to do anything until they bomb the USA again. Then when they do, I'm going to napalm the entire country on the off chance of hitting a bad guy. Anybody I miss, I'll just shoot them in the back while they're running away". :D

I kinda like the Bush idea of precision strikes a whole lot better.
 
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From Tom Tomorrow's blog:


I didn't actually see the report live -- Wolf had already moved on to his next story -- but I was struck by how casual this was: innocent civilians killed in a U.S. airstrike, and it wasn't even the news hook; the death of the reporter was. (CNN doesn't have a transcript up for the report I saw. They do, however, have one for a later, similar report. Scroll down, or just search for the words "I'm dying." The entire mention of the U.S. inflicting over 70 civilian casualties is exactly four sentences long. The Batman guy, meanwhile, got thirty.)

So, through the miracle of TiVo, I rewound. And there it was.

Video.

Civilians.

Being killed by a U.S. airstrike.

Non-combatants. Celebrating on a disabled U.S. vehicle, granted. But civilians nonetheless. Certainly not in combat against any U.S. troops.

In the foreground, a reporter just doing his job, frowning over some little technical glitch, maybe something he forgot to do...

Bang, boom. No warning. Just an incoming U.S. aerial attack. "To prevent looters from stripping the vehicle," the Pentagon later says, classifying everyone within thirty feet as "looters" and sentencing them to summary execution.

Blood splashes on the lens. The camera spins. Tiny glimpses of terrible carnage.

Without a beat, without reflection, without even a moment of minimal thought, Wolf Blitzer moves on. As do we, collectively.

And that's that. America kills innocent civilians. Lots of them. And it's no big deal now. Not controversial. No reason to ask questions or rationalize or even pretend to soul-search like the national media once did. America kills civilians. Lots of them. Just part of the fabric of things now.

Happens every day.

The military isn't pressed and can't be bothered for a detailed explanation about the incident, other than to blame the victims themselves. "Great care should be taken by all to avoid and keep a safe distance from any active military operation as unpredictable events can occur," the U.S. spokesman says.

"Unpredictable events," they say. Like an earthquake or a lightning strike. Like an unprovoked attack from an Apache helicopter, firing on unarmed civilians, on tape, recorded for all the world to see.

Nobody's responsible. These are "unpredictable events."

I say this next as the most articulate, precisely-worded response I can muster right now, summing up all my emotions quite clearly: F***.

And yet there's no sizeable outrage in this country I can find. Not in the mainstream, and not even much in the blogosphere, except for a few posts.

We are numb now.

We are killing. We are killing in large numbers. And we are numb to what we are doing.

That's it. Game over. We have lost.

Not the war. Ourselves.

The war and much more will follow, soon, if we can't wake up from our savage numbness.

PS -- I was going to leave it at that, but there's more to say.

In the past year, I have personally visited three of the six biggest Muslim countries on Earth, and I have spoken at some length with ordinary Sunnis and Shia on four continents. This week I have just returned from Egypt, where I listened to lots of perfectly average people on the street, in trains, shops, and cafes.

This is true, I swear: we have hundreds of millions more potential friends than America realizes right now. And we are losing them for a generation or more. I promise you that on my soul.

Seven days ago, I was in Alexandria, watching waves break against the rocky shoreline with a 20-year-old named Mahmoud who loves Bruce Lee movies and wants to visit China and study in the footsteps of his hero. He's a devoted Muslim who playfully tried to talk me into converting; he also thinks Bin Laden is (his words) "against Islam." You'd like this guy, I promise. And he'd like you.

Mahmoud wanted very much to know was if Kerry is a good man, and if he would stop the killing, and how Americans could possibly support what is happening in Iraq.

I still don't know all the answers to his questions. But that's what they were.

An hour earlier I was accosted by a tall and angry fellow shouting "I hate America!" over and over, in a tone half-accusing, half-demanding-an-explanation. But he wasn't a mugger or anything; actually, he was well-dressed and clean-shaven and looked more like an accountant out for a stroll who was just ****ed off about the news and took it out on the white guy. I nodded and gestured for him to join me as I was walking, letting him vent. Which he did. (Hoo-boy.) I think he assumed I was German, since that's the language we wound up butchering the most for a while. I didn't stop him for a good stretch. When it was my turn, I struggled with the words, so I eventually pointed at the sole of my shoe (the dirtiest part of the body) while saying the word "Bush," then mentioned Iraq and mimed my own broken heart. (Both of these gestures were entirely accurate, I think.) And then, feeling safer once he understood I wasn't his enemy, I reaffirmed that I was an American.

You should have seen this guy's face -- a blank look for a moment, a cursor while his hard drive spun... and then the anger was completely gone, replaced with curiosity and a little, I dunno... hope, even. It was apparently news to him -- good news -- that Americans don't all support Bush, and all he wanted to know was how many more of us there were. (Yes, the media there sucks even worse than it does here.) Oh, man. Suddenly he didn't hate "America" anymore. He certainly didn't hate me. He freakin' wanted to buy me a meal, people, just to hear more.

I could go on, (and I intend to, in a book I'm trying to find time to write, called Almost Seven Wonders about this last trip). But the point is, we have many, many, many friends in this world who are reluctantly -- reluctantly, I tell you -- becoming enemies, and furious enemies at that.

It's not just about Bush, although he is almost universally disliked and/or little-respected, my hand to God, not just in the Islamic world, but damn near everywhere, once you leave these borders. (I think it's fair to guess that Bush has become the most widely-despised president in all of U.S. history, and probably by a wide margin. I certainly can't think of a precedent that comes close.)

Bush got us into this mess, and he deserves all the scorn he gets. But what happens next is up to us.

Last week, as you might know, I got lost in a dodgy section of Cairo. Soon, five bright and delightful boys decided to adopt me for a while and walk me to where I was going.

Unless things change, those same boys might want very much to kill me -- and you -- when they grow up.

Dear God. What's coming...
http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2004_09_12.html#001749
 
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Iraq lost the war, it's ours to run now; if the Iraqis are mad over any of the actions taken by our military, then they should take up arms and defend themselves. Then again I guess they enjoy being occupied, they were conditioned that way under Sadaam. Which raises the question: Was the invasion of Kuwait such a bad thing? After all, if Bush didn't have his tempertantrum we would not be in any of this mess. C'mon, all Sadaam sought for was extra strip of land connected to the gulf, not to lay waste to the country, it was for economic purpose, much like why we decided to invade Iraq the first time around.
 
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Nathan Poe

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drfeelgood said:
Lol :D True enough. What would it be like if John Kerry was in power? "I'm not going to do anything until they bomb the USA again. Then when they do, I'm going to napalm the entire country on the off chance of hitting a bad guy. Anybody I miss, I'll just shoot them in the back while they're running away". :D

I kinda like the Bush idea of precision strikes a whole lot better.
Right. Terrorists attack, invade Iraq.

No reason, but at least it rhymes.
 
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bmw22

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hemis said:
Iraq lost the war, it's ours to run now; if the Iraqis are mad over any of the actions taken by our military, then they should take up arms and defend themselves. Then again I guess they enjoy being occupied, they were conditioned that way under Sadaam.
Actually I find it rather heroic that there are so many Iraqis willing to risk their lives to protect the stability of their country. Just yesterday almost 50 police officers were killed, over 100 wounded; there are constant attacks on Iraqi police and police headquarters. I find it simply amazing that anyone there would be willing to take up this near-suicidal position, and yet they do.

I also find it amazing your mindset that this war was between America and Iraq, and that we should treat the country as if we have somehow conquered it. How does the logic flow from "Sadam has WMDs that he'll use on us" to "Sadam has ties to 9/11" to "Sadam has a collaberative relationship with Al Queda" to "Sadam is a madman and kills his 'own' people" to "the Iraqis fought a war with us and lost" thereby validating our actions?
 
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burrow_owl

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I think we can see that when it comes to the military's efforts to minimize civilian casualties, they are doing probably as near best as they can in the face of this increasingly massive insurgency.
Well, given that the US blew it big time by not leaving enough troops in the country for the reconstruction, they're doing as well as they can.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Sir Monks said:
I am tired of people like you who take the side of Iraqis standing on American Property/soil and waving a banner like the own or won something.
American Property abandoned on Iraqi soil.

maybe they will think next time before they step on an American military vehicle
Of course. They'll love America now...
 
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Sir Monks said:
I am tired of people like you who take the side of Iraqis standing on American Property/soil and waving a banner like the own or won something.
We own the place now?

That would explain the price tag...

At least we won't have to worry about why our oil is under their sand, if it's our sand.

Gotta watch those banner wavers. Gotta watch those banner wavers...

You know the last time I saw a lot a lot a lot of banner wavers?

09/12/2001. LOTS of them.

Did we mow them down, too?
 
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Here's what a president said about attacking Baghdad...

G.H.W. Bush said:
Had we gone into Baghdad -- we could have done it, you guys could have done it, you could have been there in 48 hours -- and then what? Which sergeant, which private, whose life would be at stake in perhaps a fruitless hunt in an urban guerilla war to find the most-secure dictator in the world? Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho? We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power -- America in an Arab land -- with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous.
Apparently, the man was a fortune teller.
 
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ThePhoenix

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ThePhoenix

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Sir Monks said:
I am tired of people like you who take the side of Iraqis standing on American Property/soil and waving a banner like the own or won something.

maybe they will think next time before they step on an American military vehicle
Or maybe they won't, because they're scattered over a 20-foot radius.
 
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