U.S. helicopter fires at Baghdad crowd

[SirKenin]

The people killed had nothing to do with any of those attacks. They had to do with throwing stones at an empty vehicle.

The above line of reasoning works only if we are going to kill everybody in the world so that we can be safe. And you're probably not all that sure of me, so then we'll start picking off each other.

They were waving militant banners. This gives us a clue as to who these people really were. BBS carried the photograph of a man on the burned out tank waving one such banner.

We're not talking innocents here as you would have us believe. There's more to the story I'm afraid.

 

[Voter]

They were waving militant banners. This gives us a clue as to who these people really were. BBS carried the photograph of a man on the burned out tank waving one such banner.

We're not talking innocents here as you would have us believe. There's more to the story I'm afraid.

Oooooooh, a banner! Who would lock someone up for waving a bann...

Oh yeah.

Bloomberg and the RNC's in charge of Iraq now, too?

 

[UberLutheran]

Yeah.. I guess they don't like when they get a taste of their own medicine. Oh the travesty of justice. Oh the humanity. We'll bomb your World Trade Center, ships and Embassies. We'll bomb your buses, behead your journalists and rape your women. We'll commit mass genocide, but don't you dare come after us.

Too bad. Sucks to be them.

WWJD?

Oh, of course: He'd hurl rockets at them and kill them all and lay waste to their cities, just as He did from the Cross.

NOT!

Being "a Christian" is more than "being a Christian when it's convenient", drfeelgood.

 

[MadeInOz]

bleh.... the first casualty of war is truth...

 

[SirKenin]

WWJD?

Oh, of course: He'd hurl rockets at them and kill them all and lay waste to their cities, just as He did from the Cross.

NOT!

Being "a Christian" is more than "being a Christian when it's convenient", drfeelgood.

How about "It's not what Jesus would do, it's what God would do"?

And I ask you, UberLutheran.. What would God do, as we are to model ourselves after Him? God rules by the sword, as our politicians are required to do. Rules by the sword, punishing the bad and rewarding the good.

You yourself as a devout Christian know that God has consistently ruled by the sword all through the Old Testament. He has led the Israelites into many battles to overcome their enemies.

So.. I ask you again. What would God do?

 

[burrow_owl]

Too bad. Sucks to be them.

Y'know, I actually remember seeing that 12 year-old kid among the photos of the WTC hijackers.

Sucks to be him!

 

[MadeInOz]

burrow:

it's called a pre-emptive strike

 

[Voter]

How about "It's not what Jesus would do, it's what God would do"?

And I ask you, UberLutheran.. What would God do, as we are to model ourselves after Him? God rules by the sword, as our politicians are required to do. Rules by the sword, punishing the bad and rewarding the good.

You yourself as a devout Christian know that God has consistently ruled by the sword all through the Old Testament. He has led the Israelites into many battles to overcome their enemies.

So.. I ask you again. What would God do?

Those bad old banner wavers and rock throwers. Yeah, a sword's too good for them.

They are convicted, because they live in Iraq. The people we were there to save. They were guilty, because they were too stupid or helpless or destitute to move so that they could be not guilty.

 

[burrow_owl]

burrow:

it's called a pre-emptive strike

A pearl of wisdom, that. Who knows? That kid could've eventually started developing weapons of terrorist destruction related program activities. Do we really want to learn that's it's happened by a mushroom cloud? Or a rock thrown at a tank?

 

[SirKenin]

See, UberLutheran, I think you are getting two concepts very much confused. Jesus served as our role model of how we are to conduct our interpersonal relationships, gave us a path to Heaven and God, taught us how to serve God and brought about the destruction of the temple, removing the power from the temple priests, Scribes and Pharisees, the latter two very powerful and prominent groups of people in Israelite times.

God, on the other hand, serves as our example of how government is to conduct itself. We as a people have a mandate to serve God first and foremost. Government's mandate is to model themselves after God first and foremost, else be usurped.

Two entirely different concepts.

 

[SirKenin]

Y'know, I actually remember seeing that 12 year-old kid among the photos of the WTC hijackers.

Sucks to be him!

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.. Or wears a missle for a belt buckle.

Being a terrorist or militant in this day and age is risky business. Maybe s/he should have just stayed home.

 

[Aeschylus]

Why did we kill him? Because he was terrorist!

Why was he a terrorist? Because we killed him!

 

[SirKenin]

He wasn't a terrorist because we killed his folks or anything.

He was a terrorist because he was brainwashed, believing that everything he did was in the name of Allah. He's fighting a Jihad after all.

Terrorist regimes don't like anyone that doesn't agree with the way they do business, so they go after them. "They are an enemy of Allah, because we aren't getting our own way."

Time to pay the piper.

 

[Aeschylus]

He wasn't a terrorist because we killed his folks or anything.

He was a terrorist because he was brainwashed, believing that everything he did was in the name of Allah. He's fighting a Jihad after all.

Terrorist regimes don't like anyone that doesn't agree with the way they do business, so they go after them. "They are an enemy of Allah, because we aren't getting our own way."

Time to pay the piper.

Wow you suddenly know alot about this boy! besides which most of the people surrounding the tanks were not involved in the hostilties and they were unarmed.

 

[SirKenin]

Wow you suddenly know alot about this boy! besides which most of the people surrounding the tanks were not involved in the hostilties and they were unarmed.

You're the one who said he was a terrorist.

Besides, they were militants. They were armed with stones. They already injured the soldiers and were on their way to retrieve the arms from the tank and cause more damage.

If they weren't militants, you wanna talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Man. I hope they don't gamble.

Besides, how did the tank get disabled warranting evacuation in the first place?

 

[Aeschylus]

You're the one who said he was a terrorist.

Besides, they were militants. They were armed with stones. They already injured the soldiers and were on their way to retrieve the arms from the tank and cause more damage.

If they weren't militants, you wanna talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Man. I hope they don't gamble.

Besides, how did the tank get disabled warranting evacuation in the first place?

1) Most of the crowd was civilians.

2) there were no American troops in the immediate area, the injured troops had left.

3) they were not retriivng arms, they werre commiting the heinous crime, puncishable only by death of jumping up and down the tank.

4) None of them even moved when the helicopter overhead fired on them as they had no reason to suspect it would.

What you are doing is attempting to rationalize murder.

 

[Carbon 5]

I think it's time someone mentioned that there are indeed reasons civilians would plunder wreckage outside of looking for weapons. When my father served in Desert Storm, oftentimes children and other Saudi civilians would try to reach inside his Humvee in order to take food, clothing, or bags of any kind of equipment that they could use for survival (or to sell). Sure, it was stealing, but no one would consider killing a poor civilian for trying to find means to survive...

It's important to realize that many of these people (Iraqi's) are very poor and impovished (especially after having lived through a war), and are merely looking for ways to stay alive. Hardly a crime worthy of death.

 

[Law of Loud]

Most of the crowd was civilians.

You state that most of the crowd was civilians. Does this imply that part of the crowd were insurgents? Military reports suggested that the helicopter was recieving small arms fire in the vicinity. You will also note that the presence of a disabled tank would verify that there indeed was a significant firefight in that area recently.

there were no American troops in the immediate area, the injured troops had left.

Good. We had already rescued our troops. That does not mean that we can allow military equipment to sit around hostile streets to be looted and later used against us.

they were not retriivng arms, they werre commiting the heinous crime, puncishable only by death of jumping up and down the tank.

I'll bet that we had an entire crowd who hated America so much that their sole motivation was to dance on burning US military vehicles, despite the fact that the insurgents who had recently disabled the tank would be quite interested in looting it for the valuable equipment it would surely contain. But of course, the crowd was unarmed and weren't insurgents, because Iraqis don't usually have a weapon, and the Iraqi insurgents can be seperated from the normal Iraqis by the presence of gigantic beards. Give me a break.

None of them even moved when the helicopter overhead fired on them as they had no reason to suspect it would.

That doesn't forgive stupidity. When a military vehicle like this is taken out, you don't go dance on it. Especially if you know that the military force can arrive again at any moment. If you take the fact of US military reports, the presence of small arms fire against the helicopter was ample reason to expect return fire.

What you are doing is attempting to rationalize murder.

Despite the fact that he is being harassed by a good number of people, I think he is a lot closer to the truth than you are.

 

[Aeschylus]

You state that most of the crowd was civilians. Does this imply that part of the crowd were insurgents?

Some reports indicated that some of the crowd were insurgents, but importantly the crowd was unarmed.

Military reports suggested that the helicopter was recieving small arms fire in the vicinity. You will also note that the presence of a disabled tank would verify that there indeed was a significant firefight in that area recently.

Not from the crowd though, the whole incident was captured on video.

Good. We had already rescued our troops. That does not mean that we can allow military equipment to sit around hostile streets to be looted and later used against us.

As I said the incident was captured on video (which I have seen) and they were not looting the vehicle they wer jumping up and down on it and the fact that some equipemnt may be looted is not a carte blanche to disgreard the lifes of civilians.

I'll bet that we had an entire crowd who hated America so much that their sole motivation was to dance on burning US military vehicles, despite the fact that the insurgents who had recently disabled the tank would be quite interested in looting it for the valuable equipment it would surely contain. But of course, the crowd was unarmed and weren't insurgents, because Iraqis don't usually have a weapon, and the Iraqi insurgents can be seperated from the normal Iraqis by the presence of gigantic beards. Give me a break.

Rubbish, probably a good dela of them did hate America but that's not a license to kill them.

That doesn't forgive stupidity. When a military vehicle like this is taken out, you don't go dance on it. Especially if you know that the military force can arrive again at any moment. If you take the fact of US military reports, the presence of small arms fire against the helicopter was ample reason to expect return fire.

As I said none of the crowd were firing on the helicopter infact the helicopter was not even near to began with in the video you see the crowd and then you hear an approaching helicopter and suddenly there's a massive explosion.

Despite the fact that he is being harassed by a good number of people, I think he is a lot closer to the truth than you are.

Absolute rubbish, to tell the truth I'm sick of people like you who seem to place no value on human life and don't see anything wrong with an American helicopter firing on an unarmed crowd.

 

[burrow_owl]

Good. We had already rescued our troops. That does not mean that we can allow military equipment to sit around hostile streets to be looted and later used against us.

Maybe they should've, y'know, warned 'em or something. How hard could that be?