U of T profs alarmed by Jordan Peterson's plan to target classes he calls 'indoctrination cults'

[Ana the Ist]

$20 says its primary function is going to be to serve to enable the far/alt-right to continue whining about liberal universities.

Is there any criticism of the current state of our universities that you would accept as legitimate? Or is it all politically motivated conservatism in your mind?

I used to think pretty much the same way as you...then I saw a video of Berkeley students protesting against taking a test. When their professor denied them...they called him a white supremacist.

If this was some community college...I would probably just have a laugh at it. When it's supposed to be some of our best and brightest students...I think there's legitimate cause for concern.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's like right-wing buzzword bingo.

Postmodern
Neo-Marxist
Cult
The West
Incotrination

Combine, shake and you too can release your own mutually contradictory statements.

For the record, the origin of post-modernism was, in part, a Western intellectual critique of Marxism and has little, if anything to do with neo-Marxism (or Communism, or Socialism). Dr Peterson's arguments to the converse are generally ridiculed by all those outside of far/alt-right circles, particularly those that are actively publishing/teaching about post-Modernism (see, for example, Fredric Jameson on the subject).

Uhh...a lot of neo-marxism (though not all) has roots in post modernism (like neo-marxist feminism) and they both have strong ties to critical theory...so while they aren't the same thing there is considerable overlap.

I think Dr Peterson just wants to wave the 'Cultural Marxism' brush around as much as possible, and doesn't really understand care to differentiate his ideas thoroughly in his eagerness to tar his intellectual opponents. Also, the intellectual/revolutionary left - and no, the two are not synonymous - ditched Marxism for postmodernism in the 1980s, and I think that Dr Peterson just wants to keep ragging on 'the other side' for being different.

Saying they aren't synonymous is an understatement lol. I can't recall hearing anything from the intellectual left in years now...which is why I abandoned it. The revolutionary left has trampled intellectualism underfoot. In my opinion, if the intellectual left would speak up and rein in the revolutionary left a little bit, they might have a recognizable party in time for the next presidential election.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Is there any criticism of the current state of our universities that you would accept as legitimate? Or is it all politically motivated conservatism in your mind?

I used to think pretty much the same way as you...then I saw a video of Berkeley students protesting against taking a test. When their professor denied them...they called him a white supremacist.

If this was some community college...I would probably just have a laugh at it. When it's supposed to be some of our best and brightest students...I think there's legitimate cause for concern.

Oh, there's plenty of worthwhile criticism to be had of universities, but I don't think it's going to come from an alt-righter and I don't think that kind of criticism from an alt-righter is going to be interpreted as anything other than what I described - it will be ignored by the people who need to heed it and salivated over by the Breitbart crowd.

True self-analysis and self-correction has to come from within a person or a community, not foisted on it by an outsider taking potshots.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Are those actual quotes of his? Or just your interpretation of his position?

I'm not sure how else his position would be interpreted. He's flat out called the studies he doesn't like "indoctrination cults". Indoctrination (implying that you're being led to a conclusion rather than actually coming to it on your own) and Cult (well, I think we know the implications of using that word...mindless following, etc...)

 

[HannahT]

Oh, there's plenty of worthwhile criticism to be had of universities, but I don't think it's going to come from an alt-righter and I don't think that kind of criticism from an alt-righter is going to be interpreted as anything other than what I described - it will be ignored by the people who need to heed it and salivated over by the Breitbart crowd.

True self-analysis and self-correction has to come from within a person or a community, not foisted on it by an outsider taking potshots.

The word alt righter seems to have many definitions today, and no offense seems to be throw out willy nilly. What positions or statements has he made to define him as one? How is he defining himself as one?

For myself? I don't read Breitbart, and I don't think I need to in order to understand the definition.

Pot shots seems to be popular on campus from whatever direction, and its hardly just from those defining themselves on the left. I can't tell you how many people claim they love socialism for example, and yet can't even define the word. They are just parroting what they have heard. It's the same for many other buzzwords used today. I'm sure you have seen it, or heard it yourself.

When you have a bunch of kids parroting what they heard, and NOT understanding the concepts/words they repeat? There seems to be some lack of self-analysis and correction coming from those professors that teach it too. People need to know WHY they are standing where they are, and be able to clearly define it. Sadly, instead people call you names and throw labels at you instead. That tends to lead into huge acts of melodramatic fits that have the opposite effect of any type of intelligent.

Honestly? That is the part that scares me. Everyone need to have their own point of view of the world, but they also need to be able to clearly define it. When they can't? Taking potshots only shows the ignorance with a big shiny light.

I mean acting like this used to come from a small group of oddballs when I was there age. Now you have kids claiming opposite views are violence, and then use violence to make sure they can't be uttered. lol then campus officials offer them counseling and stuff! That's hardly sane.

Opposing points of view are a healthy environment, and both sides can learn from one another. That atmosphere just isn't there today.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh, there's plenty of worthwhile criticism to be had of universities, but I don't think it's going to come from an alt-righter and I don't think that kind of criticism from an alt-righter is going to be interpreted as anything other than what I described - it will be ignored by the people who need to heed it and salivated over by the Breitbart crowd.

True self-analysis and self-correction has to come from within a person or a community, not foisted on it by an outsider taking potshots.

You mean like someone within the university?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not sure how else his position would be interpreted. He's flat out called the studies he doesn't like "indoctrination cults". Indoctrination (implying that you're being led to a conclusion rather than actually coming to it on your own) and Cult (well, I think we know the implications of using that word...mindless following, etc...)

Well I don't see criticism of a school of thought as saying "you should agree with me instead". I think he's simply saying that's garbage over there...try not to step in it.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well I don't see criticism of a school of thought as saying "you should agree with me instead". I think he's simply saying that's garbage over there...try not to step in it.

But there's a difference between saying you feel something is garbage/useless/etc... and claiming that it's an indoctrination cult.

For example, I'd say that spending 5-figures on a philosophy degree is useless with very little chance of practical vocational application, however I wouldn't refer to it as an "indoctrination cult" (which is implying that it's nothing more that a system for tricking weak-minded people into believing something they wouldn't normally believe)

 

[Ana the Ist]

But there's a difference between saying you feel something is garbage/useless/etc... and claiming that it's an indoctrination cult.

For example, I'd say that spending 5-figures on a philosophy degree is useless with very little chance of practical vocational application, however I wouldn't refer to it as an "indoctrination cult" (which is implying that it's nothing more that a system for tricking weak-minded people into believing something they wouldn't normally believe)

I don't think he literally meant "indoctrination cult".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think he literally meant "indoctrination cult".

He may have been using some hyperbole, sure, however, the whole point of using such hyperbole is to elicit an emotional overreaction to something.

Like I said, if he just came out and said "I feel those other studies are useless and a waste of time", then while I still would've disagreed with him, I'd have had no problem with him voicing his own opinion on that.

 

[Gadarene]

How is Peterson an alt-righter, exactly?

Did he merely criticise a left-wing opinion or something?

 

[Gadarene]

Oh, there's plenty of worthwhile criticism to be had of universities, but I don't think it's going to come from an alt-righter and I don't think that kind of criticism from an alt-righter is going to be interpreted as anything other than what I described - it will be ignored by the people who need to heed it and salivated over by the Breitbart crowd.

True self-analysis and self-correction has to come from within a person or a community, not foisted on it by an outsider taking potshots.

Kek, right, I’ll have to remember that one next time white men are being scapegoated for anything and everything.

 

[Rion]

Oh, there's plenty of worthwhile criticism to be had of universities, but I don't think it's going to come from an alt-righter and I don't think that kind of criticism from an alt-righter is going to be interpreted as anything other than what I described - it will be ignored by the people who need to heed it and salivated over by the Breitbart crowd.

...who is an alt-righter this time?

True self-analysis and self-correction has to come from within a person or a community, not foisted on it by an outsider taking potshots.

Unless you're a university, in which case you've pretty much purged the wrongthinkers a while ago.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How is Peterson an alt-righter, exactly?

Did he merely criticise a left-wing opinion or something?

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself....

I went looking online for something and all I found was him speaking out against a law about non-binary gender pronouns. He had a pretty thoughtful discussion about categories and how they're created too.

He must be a neo nazi.

 

[Gadarene]

Unless you're a university, in which case you've pretty much purged the wrongthinkers a while ago.

https://www.theonion.com/college-encourages-lively-exchange-of-idea-1819577755

 

[iluvatar5150]

You mean like someone within the university?

Actually, I meant within the disciplines he's describing. If he were criticizing clinical psychology, and/or if he were trying to start a constructive dialog and offer positive solutions, then I might take a different view.

But as it is, he's positioning himself as an outsider, taking pot shots that sound good to the Breitbart set, and proposing an AI solution that sounds laughably error-prone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually, I meant within the disciplines he's describing. If he were criticizing clinical psychology, and/or if he were trying to start a constructive dialog and offer positive solutions, then I might take a different view.

But as it is, he's positioning himself as an outsider, taking pot shots that sound good to the Breitbart set, and proposing an AI solution that sounds laughably error-prone.

Because a psychologist doesn't have anything meaningful to say about those various fields?

 

[elliott95]

It's not targeting women and non-whites. It's targeting gender and cultural classes because they fall under the soft sciences, which have been pretty much overran at this point with the critical theory nonsense.

Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and the courses he teaches would fall under the soft sciences too.
His aim is not to attack the humanities, but to help save them from the destructive forces of post-modernism.
Not just centuries, but millennia of the greatest that Western civilization has to offer is being trashed by the post-modernists.

 

[elliott95]

In the article he says English Lit is corrupt. So classes on Shakespeare, Milton, Dryden, Keats, Dickens, and T.S. Eliot are post-modern, neo-Marxist indoctrination cults?

No. Jordan Peterson quotes Shakespeare and Milton regularly in his lectures.

 

[elliott95]

Even in the 80s some course descriptions were misleading.

For example, I took an elective named "Christ and Politics" at a Jesuit university in 1987. The course description discussed how Jesus Christ and His Gospel influenced Western governments since the 3rd century.

Turns out the course was run by a Marxist Jesuit who covered only South and Central American liberation theology. Turns out the padre was a chaplain for the Sandinista revolutionary army in the 70s.

That would have been a huge disappointment to me to end up in a class like that.
Sign up for history and end up with propaganda.