Tzitzits

[yonah_mishael]

Here (from biblehub.com) is a list of various Greek readings. δεδεμένον καὶ is present in the MT and TR strands, but it does not appear in any of the more ancient manuscripts. I would not settle a religious dispute or make a contention based on this reading.

 

[Lulav]

So the difference would the addition of the δεδεμενον και (δεδεμένον καὶ) in the TR. I want to look at the critical apparatus to see what manuscripts read which way.

Yes, I think that may be where they got the 'knit' from right? It means to tie or bind together doesn't it?

 

[Lulav]

I don't see why this would be a later redaction do you?

 

[yonah_mishael]

I would just add that even if δεδεμένον is original to the text, it simply means that the four corners of the sheet were gathered together and tied at the top. It was then set down on the ground and released, and the four corners would then no longer be tied together. δεδεμένον doesn't mean "knit." It means "tied up" or "bound," in the same way that Paul was δεδεμένος when he was arrested (Acts 24:27, for example).

Thus, even if we take the TR as it reads and include δεδεμένον καὶ in the text, it will still not mean what you have intended it to mean. It simply means that the sheet's corners had been lifted up and tied together while it was carrying the animals like a sort of "vessel." Once it was laid on the ground, those four corners would have been released to allow for free viewing of the contents.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I don't see why this would be a later redaction do you?

The word was probably added as an explanatory to tell us how the sheet was let down from the sky. It did not come down as a flat sheet (like a magic carpet) upon which the animals rode. It came down with the corners of the sheet gathered together with the animals inside of the sheet, which was then laid on the ground. The explanation of the insertion of the words would be along these lines, that the copyists were trying to show how it was being lowered from the sky, not what the state of the corners of the sheet was.

 

[BukiRob]

I'll watch it later, but I'm really skeptical from the outset.

I take it then that you do not believe in the exodus?

 

[yonah_mishael]

I take it then that you do not believe in the exodus?

A better assumption would be directly relevant to the discussion. That is, you claim that there is archaeological evidence for the Exodus, while I say that I'm skeptical about that claim. The conclusion from this would be that I do not believe that there is any archaeological evidence for the Exodus, not that I don't believe there was an Exodus at all.

All good modern archaeologists have come away with the conclusion that there is no evidence of the Exodus. I am skeptical to think that someone on this forum is going to present a video that will counter that conclusion.

 

[BukiRob]

A better assumption would be directly relevant to the discussion. That is, you claim that there is archaeological evidence for the Exodus, while I say that I'm skeptical about that claim. The conclusion from this would be that I do not believe that there is any archaeological evidence for the Exodus, not that I don't believe there was an Exodus at all.

All good modern archaeologists have come away with the conclusion that there is no evidence of the Exodus. I am skeptical to think that someone on this forum is going to present a video that will counter that conclusion.

First off, I just asked you a question I did not make any statements about evidence.

But, since you did bring it up.....

All good modern archeologists all start with the same assumption that frankly is flawed. The assumption by your "good modern archeologists" is that the exodus occurred during the late date ~1290 bce This position is based almost exclusively by superimposing Pi Ramsees built during the reign of Ramsees II. Where they fail is establishing that Ramsees II was in fact the Pharaoh exodus is speaking of. Additionally, since Ramesees II is close to the biblical spelling of Raamese they merely assume that this is the city that the biblical reference is speaking of. All while failing to establish this fact.

The problem with accepting current views among liberal scholars is that it really undermines the whole of scripture. We find in 1 Kings 6:1 definitive information regarding the dating of exodus:
Now it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD. Whitcomb places the 4th year of Solomon's reign in 966 BCE which places the Exodus at 1445 BCE.

More astounding though is the discoveries in Aravis (Pi Ramasees) by renowned archeologist and egyptologist Manfred Bietak in 2006 of several hebrew houses and graves.

The problem is the whole of liberal archeology and egyptology insist on assuming the late date and predictably there is no evidence of the exodus and indeed there is no evidence that hebrew were in eygpt at this later date because they had left Egypt hundreds of years earlier.


Feel free to read this if you are interested it is an academic paper on the justification of an earlier exodus date https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...exodus/text/articles/dyer-dateexodus-bsac.pdf

 

[AbbaLove]

I would just add that even if δεδεμένον is original to the text, it simply means that the four corners of the sheet were gathered together and tied at the top. It was then set down on the ground and released, and the four corners would then no longer be tied together. δεδεμένον doesn't mean "knit." It means "tied up" or "bound," in the same way that Paul was δεδεμένος when he was arrested (Acts 24:27, for example).

Thus, even if we take the TR as it reads and include δεδεμένον καὶ in the text, it will still not mean what you have intended it to mean. It simply means that the sheet's corners had been lifted up and tied together while it was carrying the animals like a sort of "vessel." Once it was laid on the ground, those four corners would have been released to allow for free viewing of the contents.

The inclusion of the descriptive words-- "knit" - "bound," - "linen" and the footnote "foursquare"(GNV) by translators all provide meaningful insight into Peter's Vision. Such descriptors all offer additional meaning to: Peter's Vision of a Messianic Covenant being made known to all of mankind.

Lulav's interpretation of Acts 10:11 using translations having the inclusion of "knit" is just as valid as another's meaningful interpretation using a translation having the inclusion of "bound" in the text. Without the inclusion of "knit" in the text of the: 1599 Geneva Bible, King James Bible, Jubilee Bible 2000 and Webster's Bible Translation we wouldn't have been enlightened by Lulav's insightful interpretation giving additional Messianic meaning to Peter's Messianic Vision.

 

[yonah_mishael]

The inclusion of the descriptive words-- "knit" - "bound," - "linen" and the footnote "foursquare"(GNV) by translators all provide meaningful insight into Peter's Vision. Such descriptors all offer additional meaning to: Peter's Vision of a Messianic Covenant being made known to all of mankind.

Lulav's interpretation of Acts 10:11 using translations having the inclusion of "knit" is just as valid as another's meaningful interpretation using a translation having the inclusion of "bound" in the text. Without the inclusion of "knit" in the text of the: 1599 Geneva Bible, King James Bible, Jubilee Bible 2000 and Webster's Bible Translation we wouldn't have been enlightened by Lulav's insightful interpretation giving additional Messianic meaning to Peter's Messianic Vision.

But it's not what the text means. It certainly is not talking about a tallit.

 

[danny ski]

A better assumption would be directly relevant to the discussion. That is, you claim that there is archaeological evidence for the Exodus, while I say that I'm skeptical about that claim. The conclusion from this would be that I do not believe that there is any archaeological evidence for the Exodus, not that I don't believe there was an Exodus at all.

All good modern archaeologists have come away with the conclusion that there is no evidence of the Exodus. I am skeptical to think that someone on this forum is going to present a video that will counter that conclusion.

Off topic, but needs to be said that there were many exodi(?) In the EuroAsian history. Some left archeological footprint, others did not and we only know about them through an incomplete historical transmissions or much later origin legends. There were several mass transits of peoples of which we have very little or no knowledge.

 

[AbbaLove]

But it's not what the text means. It certainly is not talking about a tallit.

Would not disagree with you that Peter's Messianic Vision was not a literal (very large) Prayer Shawl. Never-the-less Lulav's thoughtful perceptive suggestion was appreciated. Translations including the words - "knit," "linen" and "bound" add meaningful insight to the text. The inclusion of "bound" in some translations could likewise be interrupted as Yeshua being "bound" for the sake of all mankind. The inclusion of "knit" can also be interrupted as the spiritual hearts of Jewish and Gentile followers of Adonai being "knit" and "bound" together in one "vessel."

Lulav's interruptaton as a symbolic Prayer Shawl is a beautiful picture of G-d's Love. A Prayer Shawl that is capable of accommodating both Jewish and Greek/Gentile followers of Adonai, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach.

 

[pat34lee]

A better assumption would be directly relevant to the discussion. That is, you claim that there is archaeological evidence for the Exodus, while I say that I'm skeptical about that claim. The conclusion from this would be that I do not believe that there is any archaeological evidence for the Exodus, not that I don't believe there was an Exodus at all.

All good modern archaeologists have come away with the conclusion that there is no evidence of the Exodus. I am skeptical to think that someone on this forum is going to present a video that will counter that conclusion.

Creating a new thread for the Exodus.

 

[AbbaLove]

But it's not what the text means. It certainly is not talking about a tallit.

Many congregations use the large full tallit for blessing the children on Shabbat, really too big to 'wear' but used more like a chuppah.

Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is referred to as the Bridegroom of the Messinic Covenant. Peter's Messianic Vision being interrupted as that of a foursquare wedding chuppah with tzitzits on each corner is not unreasonable. We need to remember that this figurative vision, while Peter was in a trance, has levels of interpretation. Words such as "knit" - "bound" - "linen" - "foursquare" add meaningful insight.

Figurative language, then, is that in which one thing is said under the form or figure of another thing. A large proportion of the words in all languages that expressed intellectual and moral ideas, were originally figurative.

For 26 years Women of the Wall has led the struggle for religious freedom and women’s rights at the Western Wall. Women of the Wall’s central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of women’s right to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall. http://womenofthewall.org.il/2015/10/11131/​

​

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is referred to as the Bridegroom of the Messinic Covenant. Peter's Messianic Vision being interrupted as that of a foursquare wedding chuppah with tzitzits on each corner is not unreasonable. We need to remember that this figurative vision, while Peter was in a trance, has levels of interpretation. Words such as "knit" - "bound" - "linen" - "foursquare" add meaningful insight.

Figurative language, then, is that in which one thing is said under the form or figure of another thing. A large proportion of the words in all languages that expressed intellectual and moral ideas, were originally figurative.

For 26 years Women of the Wall has led the struggle for religious freedom and women’s rights at the Western Wall. Women of the Wall’s central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of women’s right to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall. http://womenofthewall.org.il/2015/10/11131/​

​

Every person should be free to believe and pray according to their own conscience. I don't think women should be prevented from doing whatever they want to do with regard to their personal faith. I don't see how this is directly relevant to the issue, though.

 

[pinacled]

Just reading and noticing Key phrases.
"Simon a tanner"

Oh how beautiful a song. If only more could see. Yet so sad to read what happened.
5 'I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.

6 Let his left hand be under my head, and his right hand embrace me.

2 Corinthians 5King James Version (KJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Acts 18King James Version (KJV)
18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.




Also looking at the sheet I heard that there are certain ways for certain days it is to be folded.

 

[pinacled]

But it's not what the text means. It certainly is not talking about a tallit.

Oh so confident again?

Might I suggest pray about it.

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't see how this is directly relevant to the issue, though.

It's relevant in today's Messianic community. A women's figurative preference for "knit" is 'bound' to be just as relevant as a man's more literal preference for "tied" especially considering the Bible's figurative language.

"Tying the knot" -- is more of a man's perspective and "Two hearts being knit together" -- is more of a woman's perspective.

One Jewish commentary believes Paul made cloaks ... not tents. Possibly foursquare cloaks with fringes for attaching tassels.

​

 

[pinacled]

Leviticus 27:30 - And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD.
And how many manner of fruit are their.

This may help with the Parable of the Sower.
Matthew 13King James Version (KJV)

13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables,saying,
Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

}9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

}10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.



Notice first Yeshua says who hath ears let him hear.
This is a reference to a Mantle that is given.
Not all the parables end with, who hath ears let him hear.

Heaven and Earth.
I wonder which is the wayside?

 

[pinacled]

Leviticus 27:30 - And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD.
And how many manner of fruit are their.

This may help with the Parable of the Sower.
Matthew 13King James Version (KJV)

13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables,saying,
Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

}9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

}10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.



Notice first Yeshua says who hath ears let him hear.
This is a reference to a Mantle that is given.
Not all the parables end with, who hath ears let him hear.

Heaven and Earth.
I wonder which is the wayside?

Deuteronomy 30King James Version (KJV)

30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
The Good Seed
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.




John 14King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

}5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

}6 Jesus saith unto him,
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.