Tyndales Heresy

[Rick Otto]

We are in the Great Tribulation... where even the elite may faulter.

Not only will the elite always falter, they have & will continue to apostacize all the while sayin' "Lord, Lord":
Mt 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Meanwhile:
Mt 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[cygnusx1]

what a SICK THREAD !!!!!!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

what a SICK THREAD !!!!!!!!

Can I take that to mean you are not Roman catholic?

 

[NoDoubt]

It IS sick. And fear, intimidation and manipulation were very persuasive.

When a heretic is first brought up for examination, he assumes a confident air, as though secure in his innocence. I ask him why he has been brought before me. He replies, smiling and courteous, "Sir, I would be glad to learn the cause from you."


I. You are accused as a heretic, and that you believe and teach otherwise than Holy Church believes.

A. (Raising his eyes to heaven, with an air of the greatest faith) Lord, thou knowest that I am innocent of this, and that
I never held any faith other than that of true Christianity.

I. You call your faith Christian, for you consider ours as false and heretical. But I ask whether you have ever believed as true another faith than that which the Roman Church holds to be true?

A. I believe the true faith which the Roman Church believes, and which you openly preach to us.

I. Perhaps you have some of your sect at Rome whom you call the Roman Church. I, when I preach, say many things, some of which are common to us both, as that God liveth, and you believe some of what I preach. Nevertheless you may be a heretic in not believing other matters which are to be believed.

A. I believe all things that a Christian should believe.

I. I know your tricks. What the members of your sect believe you hold to be that which a Christian should believe. But we waste time in this fencing. Say simply, Do you believe in one God the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

A. I believe.

I. Do you believe in Christ born of the Virgin, suffered, risen, and ascended to heaven?

A. (Briskly) I believe.

I. Do you believe the bread and wine in the mass performed by the priests to be changed into the body and blood of Christ by divine virtue?

A. Ought I not to believe this?

I. I don't ask if you ought to believe, but if you do believe.

A. I believe whatever you and other good doctors order me to believe.

I. Those good doctors are the masters of your sect; if I accord with them you believe with me; if not, not.

A I willingly believe with you if you teach what is good to me.

I. You consider it good to you if I teach what your other masters teach. Say, then, do you believe the body of our Lord,lesus Christ to be in the altar?

A. (Promptly) I believe that a body is there, and that all bodies are of our Lord.

I I ask whether the body there is of the Lord who was born of the Virgin, hung on the cross, arose from the dead, ascended, etc.

A. And you, sir, do you not believe it?

L I believe it wholly.

A. I believe likewise.

I. You believe that I believe it, which is not what I ask, but whether you believe it.

A. If you wish to interpret all that I say otherwise than simply and plainly, then I don't know what to say. I am a simple and ignorant man. Pray don't catch me in my words.

I. If you are simple, answer simply, without evasions.

A. Willingly.

I. Will you then swear that you have never learned anything contrary to the faith which we hold to be true?

A. (Growing pale) If I ought to swear, I will willingly swear.

I. I don't ask whether you ought, but whether you will swear.

A. If you order me to swear, I will swear.

I. I don't force you to swear, because as you believe oaths to be unlawful, you will transfer the sin to me who forced you; but if you will swear, I will hear it.

A. Why should I swear if you do not order me to?

I So that you may remove the suspicion of being a heretic.

A. Sir, I do not know how unless you teach me.

I. If I had to swear, I would raise my hand and spread my fingers and say, "So help me God, I have never learned heresy or believed what is contrary to the true faith."

Then trembling as if he cannot repeat the form, he will stumble along as though speaking for himself or for another, so that there is not an absolute form of oath and yet he may be thought to have sworn. If the words are there, they are so turned around that he does not swear and yet appears to have sworn. Or he converts the oath into a form of prayer, as "God help me that I am not a heretic or the like"; and when asked whether he had sworn, he will say: "Did you not hear me swear?" [And when further hard pressed he will appeal, saying] "Sir, if I have done amiss in aught, I will willingly bear the penance, only help me to avoid the infamy of which I am accused though malice and without fault of mine." But a vigorous inquisitor must not allow himself to be worked upon in this way, but proceed firmly till he make these people confess their error, or at least publicly abjure heresy, so that if they are subsequently found to have sworn falsely, he can without further hearing, abandon them to the secular arm".
http://corvalliscommunitypages.com/Europe/jesuits_saints_inquisition_reformation/xavier.htm

 

[Rick Otto]

what a SICK THREAD !!!!!!!!

Thread Doctor, in de house!

...he can without further hearing, abandon them to the secular arm".

Which of course means the torture chamber & executioner's stake.

But any good inquisitor & their apologists will say,"The Church didn't do it, secular authorities did!" as if those secular authorities were acting independantly.

 

[Catholic Christian]

...Which of course means the torture chamber & executioner's stake....

Oh please

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thread Doctor, in de house! .......

Luke 5:31 And Yahushua answering said unto them, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick".

 

[NoDoubt]

Which of course means the torture chamber & executioner's stake.

Oh please

okay

The Rack

The Garotte

The Garotte in use

 

[Catholic Christian]

NoDoubt: You must remember: ALL mankind has a violent past, whether Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, black, white, Chinese, Japanese. We can point fingers until the sun burns out. I can find plenty of protestant attrocities too, but what would it mean if I did?

These things have nothing to do with whether or not the Church teaches the truth.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hey! I recognize those people in the last picture!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is an uncanny resemblance to my great, great Aunt LuLu!!!!

 

[NoDoubt]

NoDoubt: You must remember: ALL mankind has a violent past, whether Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, black, white, Chinese, Japanese. We can point fingers until the sun burns out. I can find plenty of protestant attrocities too, but what would it mean if I did?

These things have nothing to do with whether or not the Church teaches the truth.

You speak the Truth there

Hey! I recognize those people in the last picture!

Hahaha!!!!

Thanks I needed that.

 

[NoDoubt]

That is an uncanny resemblance to my great, great Aunt LuLu!!!!

Stop I can't take anymore.....ROFL...(my great-aunt Yvonne )

 

[Rick Otto]

I think that is Father Nelson,... you know,... he invented the famous wrestling holds, the half-Nelson, the full-Nelson & "The Father Nelson"?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Inquisitions made a lot of toys for the S&M peoples today.


All to often Catholicism is depicted as the evil church and Protestants as the good church during these times. Of course we all like fairy tales and this is an example of a fairy tale.

Protestant churches were known to be far crueler then catholic run kingdoms.

Examples;

1st - http://hometown.aol.com/philvaz/articles/num37.htm

On May 4, 1535, in London, three Carthusian monks and one Bridgettine monk were hanged until partially conscious. Then their bellies were cut open, their intestines wrenched out and tossed on a fire, and their hearts ripped out by hand. The bodies were beheaded and quartered, and the pieces were posted at various locations throughout England. As the executioner slit open his belly, John Houghton, prior of the London Carthusian monastery, said, "O most holy Jesus, have mercy upon me in this hour." This was the punishment for treason in sixteenth-century England. Their crime? Refusal to recognize "the king, our sovereign, to be the supreme head of the Church of England afore the Apostles of Christ's Church."

AND

Historians Eamon Duffy (in The Stripping of the Altars) and Christopher Haigh (in English Reformations) have shown that the Reformation in England largely came from the top down. Protestants accused Catholic bishops and monks of manipulating the common folk to believe superstitions and practice idolatry, but some of the most blatant examples of manipulation and intimidation came from Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell.


AND


Still, during Henry's and Edward's reigns, support for Catholic religious practice remained strong, as popular rebellions in 1536, 1548, 1549, and 1554 show. But even after the Elizabethan settlement, when Protestantism ruled the nation uncontested, traditional Catholicism remained deeply embedded in all classes. Nowhere is the strength of lay devotion more evident than in the story of Margaret Clitherow.
Born about 1553 in a leading Protestant family of York, Margaret married a wealthy tradesman, John Clitherow, in 1571. Three years later, she became a Roman Catholic, although her husband remained Protestant. In March 1586, when she was in her early thirties, she was arrested for harboring Catholic priests. She refused to plead guilty or innocent, lest her children and husband be compelled to testify against her. The penalty for refusing to plead was to be crushed to death under nearly half a ton of weights. Even her Protestant neighbors respected her and refused to testify against her.

Why did Margaret Clitherow turn to the Catholic faith, especially in Elizabethan England? Not because of birth or indoctrination, nor because she was hoodwinked by superstitious, semi-pagan, idolatrous beliefs. For Margaret, the Church was an institution with historical continuity to the Apostles and the incarnate Jesus Christ:

"I am fully resolved in all things touching my faith, which I ground upon Jesus Christ, and by him I steadfastly believe to be saved, which faith I acknowledge to be the same that he left to his apostles, and they to their successors from time to time, and is taught in the Catholic Church through all Christendom, and promised to remain with her unto the world's end, and hell-gates shall not prevail against the same faith; for if an angel come from heaven, and preach any other doctrine than we have received, the Apostle biddeth us not believe him."​

 

[JacktheCatholic]

More...

2nd - http://vanallens.com/exchristian/calvin.htm

Quote: "If any one still harbors the traditional prejudice that the early Protestants were more liberal, he must be undeceived. Save for a few splendid sayings of Luther, confined to the early years when he was powerless, there is hardly anything to be found among the leading reformers in favor of freedom of conscience. As soon as they had the power to persecute they did."


AND

Quote:"What shall we say of a church . . . that had as yet no services to show, no claims upon the gratitude of mankind . . . which nevertheless suppressed by force a worship that multitudes deemed necessary to salvation? . . . So strong and so general was its intolerance that for some time it may, I believe, be truly said that there were more instances of partial toleration being advocated by Roman Catholics than by orthodox Protestants. "


AND

Quote: This fact is forgotten by Protestants. They read blood-curdling stories of the Inquisition and of atrocities committed by Catholics, but what does the average Protestant know of Protestant atrocities in the centuries succeeding the Reformation? Nothing, unless he makes a special study of the subject . . . Yet they are perfectly well known to every scholar . . .


AND


Quote: "Even contempt of the outward Word, carelessness about going to church and contempt of Scripture - in this in-stance . . . the Bible as interpreted by Luther - was now regarded as `rank blasphemy,' which it was the duty of the authorities to punish as such. To such lengths had the vaunted freedom of the Gospel now gone."

AND

"The Anglican Dean Inge, of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, did not hesitate to say . .

• 'If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought on the world, I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country, is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther.'

And he gave as his reason that in Lutheranism:

• 'the Law of Nature, which ought to be the court of appeal against unjust authority, is identified with the existing order of society, to which absolute obedience is due.'"

 

[Rick Otto]

All to often Catholicism is depicted as the evil church and Protestants as the good church during these times

Might lead ya to rethink "church" itself, as in "churchianity" vesus "ecclesis" & just the ecclesia are "called out" of.

It's almost as if any organization that has a man instead of Jesus as CEO, no matter how much they say they follow Jesus, you can tell they don't in fact.

Of course we all like fairy tales and this is an example of a fairy tale.

Protestant churches were known to be far crueler then catholic run kingdoms.

Yeah, I can smell fairy tail all over that. But I do like Margy's husband & neighbors!

 

[Hismessenger]

This could not have been further from the truth in the opening post

It is because of the Church, which collected the various books of Scripture in the fourth century, that we have a Christian Bible at all.

Before the bible was written, it was passed down word of mouth but even beyond this, man can take no credit for it's being here. God has said, heaven and earth would pass away before one jot of His word would fail. God has kept his word before us as the oldest most read book of all time. The bible takes all awards for literature hands down.

hismessenger

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Glad to see someone "resurrecting" my bro Tyndale's thread.