Two women in Revelation 17

[TribulationSigns]

I believe the "woman" is the same from the beginning to the end. She was once protected in the wilderness then she became a harlot while in the wilderness. This is apostate Israel, specifically Jerusalem. Be blessed.

You are very close to being accurate. The woman "IS" indeed the congregation of Israel that represents God's people on Earth. Starting with Old Testament Israel before the Cross, and the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, after the Cross, where she has flee into the wilderness (world) where she was feed with Gospel. Therefore, the woman is not always a national Israel or Physical city of Jerusalem.

The harlot of Revelation 17-18, prior to Second Coming, is the unfaithful New Testament congregation, more specifically, the external or corporate part of the church.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg said:
The spirit of the literal beast called a serpent in Genesis, who apparently sold out to Satan, to get Adam and Eve to sin.
Enough said. If you do not have Scripture support, no one should support your man-made assumption!

Purely speculation! Need I say more?

"beast called a serpent in Genesis,"

Are you going to argue about some petty grammar ambiguity (to you)?

The beast that beguiled Eve was called a serpent in Genesis.

Satan is called that "old serpent" an obvious referral to the Garden of Eden. Do you really think that Satan was the serpent himself?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 23:338 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

typifies what meaning made desolate means. And the method the Romans used to destroy the temple in 70ad,with fire.

So destroying the Vatican with fire, making it desolate that way, burning it to the ground - I don't understand your objections to that interpretation.

Obviously you are confused! You need to learn to read the context first to understand.

Matthew 23:35-38 KJV
[35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
[36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Listen... was this holy city, this Jerusalem, Christ was talking about, left desolate in 70AD?! The answer is NO!

See...it was left SPIRITUALLY desolate because Christ was prophesied against the Old Testament congregation that christ was speaking about! He is not talking about a physical city being destroyed, or physical bricks and stones falling in ruin, but of a CORPORATE PEOPLE OF GOD! A people who have REJECTED God's servants and prophets despite God's care and care of them. A people who were supposed to represent God's holy city but who loved abominations rather than righteousness and as a result would be left desolate, and no longer be the city of peace. Selah! He was not talking about a city being destroyed by Romans some 37 years later, but a spiritual city brought to blindness and ruin by their wickedness.

The fact is, interpretations don't belong to Josephus, they belong to God (Genesis 40:8 ). God doesn't leave it up to human bias, historians or man to judge so-called Biblical facts If that were the case, we would all come to totally different conclusions reading the same Bible. Which (by the way) is the very reason that we have so many diverse interpretations in the churches. Because so many professing Christians do not hold to the sound hermeneutic of allowing the Bible to interpret itself. People use the methodology of thinking they can "of themselves" discern truth through speculation and secular history. No way that is a sound system. Truth about prophecy is found upon the pages of the Bible, Not on the pages of history books. The Spirit of God that is within every believer does not reveal whether historical facts/events line up with prophecies, it reveals when scripture lines up with scripture, when it is in harmony with itself, thus revealing the truth of how God Himself interpret imagery, symbols and prophecies.

By contrast, you seem to be saying that history, as found in secular history books, is an accurate way to interpret God's word. If that is what you believe, I would say that is an unsound system of interpretation. Like I said about you, ASSUMPTION is the MOTHER OF ERRORS! Secular History may be true, but it also may not be. For "History is written by the victors," and we should never assume that what is written is the truth just because it finds its way into renowned books. Nevertheless, even if it were "mostly" true, we can never use secular history to interpret or understand God's word. God didn't inspire His holy word to be interpreted by books written by uninspired men. The Bible is meant to be interpreted by the Bible, not by comparing it to what other men may have written. That's the most basic and fundamental of all sound interpretation. itself. The only infallible means of interpretation is an infallible word. Scripture interprets scripture because interpretations belong to God (Genesis 40:8 ), and God today speaks to us through His word. Anything else is a private interpretation.

2nd Peter 1:20

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

Prophesy has never been subject to any man's historical observations, personal opinions, individual explanations or learned, scholarly suppositions. Interpretation is by God through God's word alone.

Matthew 24:1-2

• "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
• And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Of course the natural man would look at this and think that God was speaking about a physical temple building, but the spiritual man knows God speaks of the congregation as a temple and those within it as the stones of that Temple. That's not something I made up, that's a Biblical fact. And as far as the prophecy, and despite suppositions to the contrary, our Lord was very specific saying not only that "not one stone would be left standing one upon another of it, but further amplified it by saying they (the stones one upon another) would all (BAR NONE) be thrown down! Even by using the vaunted secular history books we know of a certainty that more than one stone was left standing one upon another after AD 70. In point of fact, to this very day there are foundation stones left standing "one upon another" of the physical Temple. Moreover, there were (and let's not forget this) many stones of the physical city Jerusalem left standing one upon another. Again, the qualifying prophecy was that "not one stone would be left standing one upon another. Too many people want to "ignore" this qualification because it doesn't fit or conform to their personal/private interpretations of this prophecy taking place in AD 70.

Luke 19:41-46

• "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
• Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
• For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
• And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
• And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
• Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."

Many Christians refuse to hear the part where Christ unambiguously says the city shall be laid even with the ground and her children within her. It's very willfully convenient to leave that part out. Who TRULY were the enemies of Jerusalem and how were they compassed round about her. Who truly brought the city to desolation? Was it the Romans, or was it those, the Jews, who would smite the Shepherd? Only by comparing scripture with scripture will we ever know the "TRUE" answer to that. No, it's not the Romans! Christ said that the city Jerusalem itself and all its children within would be laid even with the ground so that Not one stone would be left standing one upon another. Again, Christ's specific qualification for the fulfillment, not mine. Of course, TODAY, the physical city remained with many stones STILL left standing one upon another, which means that the physical city in AD 70 was NOT what Christ was speaking about in the prophecy. Only their spiritual city, the Old Testament congregation qualifies for having been completely laid even with the ground and brought to desolation. In other words, Old Testament Congregation is no longer a representative of God's Kingdom. She was done. We have to understand, Christ didn't weep for literal stones or for a physical city Jerusalem, he wept for the congregation Jerusalem, the people who were the stones and the city proper. It is "THEY" who would be brought to desolation or total ruin by their abominations, and it is they who were laid even with the ground. That is why the Apostle Paul also Wept for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Because He understood that at that moment, they were no longer the people of God. That is the ruin that came upon Jerusalem because of her abominations.

To assume that a physical city of Jerusalem being burn by Roman is something you believe that your private interpretation of Babylon the Great being the Vatican City, will suffer the same way. That is why your doctrine isn't supported in test of Scripture.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the "woman" is the same from the beginning to the end. She was once protected in the wilderness then she became a harlot while in the wilderness. This is apostate Israel, specifically Jerusalem. Be blessed.

1. Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

2. Revelation 12:14

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

3. Revelation 17:3

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

In Revelation 17:3 who is the scarlet colored beast ? Satan, right?

In Revelation 12, once he is cast down to the earth, Satan persecutes the woman in that chapter. So I don't see the connection you are making.

The woman on the beast in Revelation 17 represents Satan's and his third of the angels mystical kingdom. That woman was never virtuous.

 

[Douggg]

To assume that a physical city of Jerusalem being burn by Roman is something you believe that your private interpretation of Babylon the Great being the Vatican City, will suffer the same way. That is why your doctrine isn't supported in test of Scripture.

I never said that Babylon the Great was Vatican city. Here is my chart again. At the top read what Mystery Babylon the Great is.

There are two different women in Revelation 17. The great harlot representing the Vatican. And the other different woman riding beast represents Satan and his third of the angels mystical kingdom.

 

[TribulationSigns]

"beast called a serpent in Genesis,"

Are you going to argue about some petty grammar ambiguity (to you)?

The beast that beguiled Eve was called a serpent in Genesis.

Satan is called that "old serpent" an obvious referral to the Garden of Eden. Do you really think that Satan was the serpent himself?

Sigh...you are playing word games here and getting more confused every day.

You said,

"The serpent beast had the ability of speak and reason. Independent of Satan.

The sell out was that the serpent would do something for Satan, which was in exchange to usurp man's place of appointment that God had given him, the serpent would be the ruler of the garden. The serpent thinking that Satan had that ability."

Huh? You were saying that God has cursed that physical beast for his cooperation with "Satan", right?

Genesis 3:14-15 KJV
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Using your logic, are you suggesting that the same physical beast from the Garden to come upon the Cross to bite nailed Christ's heel?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I never said that Babylon the Great was Vatican city. Here is my chart again. At the top read what Mystery Babylon the Great is.

There are two different women in Revelation 17. The great harlot representing the Vatican. And the other different woman riding beast represents Satan and his third of the angels mystical kingdom.

View attachment 282519

Are you having a double vision with Revelation 17 or what? You think you are seeing two separate women in the chapter yet the angel was talking about one woman.

Revelation 17:7 KJV
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

There is only ONE WOMAN that rode upon a beast with ten horns. The very same horns that hate the woman.

Okay, please go have your eyes checked by reading the whole chapter slowly.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Revelation 17:3 who is the scarlet colored beast ? Satan, right?

[applause]

In Revelation 12, once he is cast down to the earth, Satan persecutes the woman in that chapter. So I don't see the connection you are making.

Can you at least try to quote Scripture with context:

Revelation 12:9-14 KJV
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Again, the woman represents the congregation of Israel. Before the Cross, when Christ was born, she represented Israel. So by the time Christ went to the Cross, the old testament congregation of Israel fell with Satan cast out with it. And in three days Christ rebuilt the congregation where Satan is no longer there. She is now representing the New Testament congregation where Salvation is possible to men!

Satan is enraged that he was cast out of the kingdom of Heaven is persecuting after the woman (now New Testament Congregation) who has fled into the wilderness (world) where she is feed with Gospel. She did not stay in the Middle East.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The remnant of her seed is obviously Christians during the New Testament who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[quyote]The woman on the beast in Revelation 17 represents Satan's and his third of the angels mystical kingdom. That woman was never virtuous.

You may need to read Revelation 18 carefully for an answer:

Revelation 18:2 KJV
[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

This is the same woman, the church, who was once a faithful representative of God's kingdom on Earth for the past 2,000 years. But externally, she has fallen from God and BECOME a harlot where God has called His elect to come out of her to avoid her plagues (judgment from God). They are called out of "THAT CHUCH" that has SPIRITUALLY BECOME Babylon.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In Revelation 17:3 who is the scarlet colored beast ? Satan, right?

In Revelation 12, once he is cast down to the earth, Satan persecutes the woman in that chapter. So I don't see the connection you are making.

The woman on the beast in Revelation 17 represents Satan's and his third of the angels mystical kingdom. That woman was never virtuous.

Rome. Apostate Judaism, centered in the City of Jerusalem, is supported by the Roman Empire.

 

[Timtofly]

Note: I am pulling in information from Christian, Jewish and Islamic prophecy, and the news. Maybe this is all wrong, but nevertheless it is interesting.

While I agree with your arguments, I will explain just how Rome could get burned with fire: nuclear terrorism. Allah has promised Muslims the conquest of Rome. Muslims talk about this regularly. Rome is currently a target for Muslims.

Jewish prophecy:



I suspect Iran takes out Rome via nuclear terrorism or there would be no waiting nine months. After a nine month investigation, Nato takes out Iran via a nuclear attack in retaliation. Naturally, Iran would nuke Nato back and from what I understand Iran will also nuke several Gulf states, like Saudi Arabia.

Seal #5 - Rome falls via nuclear terrorism.
Seal #6 - Nato nukes Iran in retaliation for #5 after a 9 month investigation.

Here are a couple of sources:

[Blog] The Prophetic Destruction of Iran - Breaking Israel News | Latest News. Biblical Perspective.

- [Blog] The Prophetic Destruction of Iran - Breaking Israel News | Latest News. Biblical Perspective.
- Prophecy Fulfilled: Sept. 4, 2015 - Israel News

Does this mean Iran is the Mystery Babylon?

If Rome is destroyed, Satan will be forced to relocate to Jerusalem.

In the 6th seal, God is going to bring the 7 Continents back into 1 single Continent. There will no longer be separation imposed by the Flood (Genesis 6). Seal 4 may be when major cities are destroyed by a major war that wipes out 1 billion lives. The Lamb will bring some peace, along with God’s judgments. However this time will be the separation of sheep from the goats and the Lamb will gather people to where they need to be. Will the goats be as compliant as the sheep?

 

[nolidad]

There are two women in Revelation 17, not one as is often thought.

One is the great harlot that gets destroyed by the ten kings in the end times.

The other is the kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels, that is at the root of all false religions and abominations upon the earth.

Here is my chart to aid in understanding the difference.

View attachment 282480

You are wrong about the vatican and I am from a literalist independent Baptist Church and we are supposed the biggest anti-Roman folk around!

The great harlot and woman are one and the same and they are the culmination of all Mystery religions and false Christian sects and their people who missed the rapture!

The seven montains are seven kings or kingdoms or rule. This whole Julian line is a red herring! People forget that the end times are more about Israel than some gentile rule and preparing the surviving Israelis (2/3 arew killed and 1/3 will recieve Jesus as Messiah), to enter their long prophesied and assured kingdom.

While Satan is the spiritual head of all false religions, Babylon was where all the false religions of the world have their roots. It is where the myustery religions which have been passed down for millennia were born! That is why Babylon is called a harlot! Whenever a woman is used symbolically (with only one exception) it is always a religious system, and when she is called a harlot it is a false religious system!

 

[Douggg]

Are you having a double vision with Revelation 17 or what? You think you are seeing two separate women in the chapter yet the angel was talking about one woman.

Revelation 17:7 KJV
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

There is only ONE WOMAN that rode upon a beast with ten horns. The very same horns that hate the woman.

Okay, please go have your eyes checked by reading the whole chapter slowly.

Your failure is not being able to discern when God is speaking only of the serpent and when God is speaking of Satan who used the serpent.

 

[Toro]

Figures. Blind leading the blind going on here.

Even IF you are correct the level of pride you boast is worse than blind leading the blind.

For the blind do not see what causes them to stumble, while you claim sight and to know, yet do not see.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your failure is being able to discern when God is speaking only of the serpent and when God is speaking of Satan who used the serpent.

LOL. Based on what Scripture? I don't see God's Word coming out of your mouth that confirms what you tried to say.

Same thing with a woman of Revelation 17. You have not offered a single verse(s) to support your so-called "two women" theory! You just make a wild claim that you are seeing two women out of Revelation 17 despite what Revelation 17:7 clearly declared.

So whatever you say. Your interpretation remained to be an error.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Even IF you are correct the level of pride you boast is worse than blind leading the blind.

People tend to accuse me of anything whenever the blind could not gainsay or resist my testimony that comes with the Word of God (Scripture).

Luke 21:15 KJV
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

I am not interested in your opinion against the personalities of posters if you will not contribute a thing to the subject being discussed. Either get yourself into a discussion on Douggg's charts or stay out of the kitchen.

 

[Swan7]

It's not about a testimony, it is how it is told. If you do not give a testimony out of love, you end up with nothing. Take the warning for what it is. Please do consider it.

P.S. We are also to correct our brothers and sisters in Christ out of that same love.

 

[Toro]

People tend to accuse me of anything whenever the blind could not gainsay or resist my testimony that comes with the Word of God (Scripture).

Luke 21:15 KJV
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

I am not interested in your opinion against the personalities of posters if you will not contribute a thing to the subject being discussed. Either get yourself into a discussion on Douggg's charts or stay out of the kitchen.

God opposes the proud, not the blind.

Ignore warnings if you want.

I dont need to agree with the OP to know that EVEN IF your theology is correct, your methods are not.

You correct in love, not in mockery and pride.

But if you choose to mock your brother rather than to correct in love, remember. 1 John 4:20.

 

[TribulationSigns]

God opposes the proud, not the blind.

What did God say?

Isaiah 44:18 KJV
[18] They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

I dont need to agree with the OP to know that EVEN IF your theology is correct, your methods are not.

What methods are you talking about?

 

[Douggg]

You are wrong about the vatican and I am from a literalist independent Baptist Church and we are supposed the biggest anti-Roman folk around!

The great harlot and woman are one and the same and they are the culmination of all Mystery religions and false Christian sects and their people who missed the rapture!

The seven montains are seven kings or kingdoms or rule. This whole Julian line is a red herring! People forget that the end times are more about Israel than some gentile rule and preparing the surviving Israelis (2/3 arew killed and 1/3 will recieve Jesus as Messiah), to enter their long prophesied and assured kingdom.

While Satan is the spiritual head of all false religions, Babylon was where all the false religions of the world have their roots. It is where the myustery religions which have been passed down for millennia were born! That is why Babylon is called a harlot! Whenever a woman is used symbolically (with only one exception) it is always a religious system, and when she is called a harlot it is a false religious system!

Nolidad, the worship of the beast and his image will be the notable abomination false religion of all times, because Satan will be worshiped (Revelation 13:4). Why would the ten kings go to an effort to destroy that system of the beast, who they believe in? The ten kings are not going to destroy the abomination of desolation statue image on the temple mount.

So that leaves what are they are going to destroy with fire, a religion that is worldwide and has many followers, that sits in the place of seven mountains?

There again, it is not that simple to be talking about just one woman, because in wilderness scene, there is a woman sitting upon the scarlet beast, Satan, having the inscription on her forehead, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And she is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

There is a mystery involved regarding that woman, and a mystery involved with Satan. How could he be in the bottomless pit and in the wilderness at the same time?

The angel in Revelation 17:7 tells (informs) that there is a mystery regarding the two, the woman and the scarlet beast, Satan. Starting with verse 8. It is up to the reader to solve the mystery.

In Revelation 10:7 there is the Mystery of God that is going to be completed in the days of the 7th trumpet.

So the whole thing, the mystery of the woman, the mystery of Satan, the mystery of God - goes all the way back to the beginning of the bible and Satan's leading a third of the angels to rebel, and to get Adam and Eve to sin - and God's plan to destroy Satan and them who rebelled with him. The destruction of Satan's kingdom in the days of the 7th trumpet, never to rise again. And the bringing of the Kingdom of God here to earth by Jesus's return to be the reigning Kingdom over the nations.

Revelation has to be read with that awareness in mind.

 

[Toro]

What methods are you talking about?

I would simply ask you to go back and look at the first page if nothing else at how youresponded.

This person took the time to make a chart, put forth their theory on end times which is pretty much everyone speculates and interprets their own meaning to.

IF you had made a chart of your own beliefs, typed out your thoughts and beliefs, only to be met with replies like those you sent to him how willing would you be to listen to correction?

People believe what they believe, and what they believe is rooted in their heart... there is no reason to beat them in the head.

We DO correct a brother that we believe in error absolutely...but it is our method that matters.

Did Jesus speak to the woman caught in adultry harshly though she was clearly wrong? Did Jesus mock the woman at the wrll who had multiple husbands? Did Jesus mock the man who asked to help him in his unbelief?

Jesus corrected MANY in truth and with kind gentleness. The harsh words He spoke, were to those that boast in pride that they had sight.

We (all of us) need reminders time to time, that any sight we have is given to us. Not so that we may mock the blind, but to help lead them to light, lovingly so that they too may see and then they too may go off and lead another in love